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Vegas

  • Karma: +1/-0
460 rpm limited
« on: April 01, 2013, 03:43:30 PM »
So in my 19 Hallett bubble deck I seem to only be hitting 2900 rpm or so when on the water. When on the trailer it will rev above 3k (bumping throttle, don't hold this ever) on GPS the boat does 51. Carb was recently cleaned and everything as far as secondaries and throttle linkage. The dizzy is an MSD and has the fast advance springs timing totals around 33° if I remember. Fuel filters are new. Coworker said the fuel line could be bad and sucking shut. Anyone have any further ideas? What should the 460 run in stock form? Thanks!

Lucas
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jet fever

  • Karma: +7/-2
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2013, 04:05:10 PM »
Well u probly have the same nasty fiberglass tanks as the other Halletts
I'm getting new tanks as we speak ordering new aluminum ones from imco
I changed all lines to larger fuel selector and have two filters didn't help
Mine would bog every once in a while shit hitting the pick up the tiny pickup
How did the fuel system look before u cleaned it I had to look into my tank in the garage with a maglite to see the crap inside
  • Boat #1: 76 Hallett Bubble Deck
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Vegas

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2013, 04:30:18 PM »
I was actually about to post in your thread.  I have IMCO tanks already, aluminum.  Previous owner said they were 10 gal. but I have fit about 12 in them.  All my fuel lines are 3/8.  I just replaced the line from the pump to my fuel/water separator with some super thick-walled marine stuff but I ran out of it.  I just bought some Gates reinforced fuel injection hose to go from the selector valve to the tanks.  Also, the lines to the tanks are the only fuel lines that had not been replaced and I have no clue how old they are.  I am just trying to get a good list of things to check out before I get to the lake again next weekend.
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jet fever

  • Karma: +7/-2
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2013, 05:13:26 PM »
How old is the pump and wear ring

If its worn out its like driving a car with a slipping tranny
  • Boat #1: 76 Hallett Bubble Deck
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Vegas

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2013, 05:17:00 PM »
It was rebuilt in the 90s and I doubt there is much run time on it since then.  My boat is acting in the opposite manner, instead of revving high, it maxes out at 2900 rpm on the water.
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mash on it

  • Karma: +29/-0
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2013, 05:36:18 PM »
Is the tach correct?
51 mph @ 2900 doesn't add up

Daniel
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Vegas

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2013, 05:42:44 PM »
I was going to hook up my multimeter and see what numbers it was putting out.  The dizzy is new, all new wiring, and new autometer gauge set to 8 cyl.  The thing is, I had the boat idling and I hit the throttle and it went above 3k.  It also seems as if it has more in it while on the water.
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76baja

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2013, 05:45:58 PM »
I had the same problem last summer, turns out i somehow had 2 plug wires in the wrong position. it wouldn't get above 3000 rpms but idled good and ran good. a buddy of mine rechecked the plug wires and found it. after that it ran better than ever!
  • Boat #1: 76 Baja 19br
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Vegas

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2013, 07:21:07 PM »
I doubt it is the firing order, but I will double check it tomorrow morning.  Also, plugs are all brand new gapped at 45
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IRRebel

  • Karma: +16/-0
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2013, 07:35:59 PM »
I had the same problem last summer, turns out i somehow had 2 plug wires in the wrong position. it wouldn't get above 3000 rpms but idled good and ran good. a buddy of mine rechecked the plug wires and found it. after that it ran better than ever!

That's actually one I wouldn't have thought of right off the bat, but does kinda fit.

I'm also in agreement with Daniel that 51 MPH at 2900 RPM is an incredible crazy number!! Tachometer HAS to be jacked up, IMHO. Hearing it run, does it SOUND like 2900 RPM? 2900 RPM is a bit over what most cars cruise at, at say, 75MPH, on the freeway.

Ray
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"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Holy Shit what a ride!"---Crewcheif22 AKA Keith

Vegas

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2013, 07:41:20 PM »
It does sound like it is spinning more than that, but I can't say for certain.  I am going to get the multimeter with the tach adjustment on it tomorrow if I get a chance to run it on the hose.  All I know for certain is that when it is on the hose, I can hit the throttle and it goes above 3k without hesitation (And sounds like it), and it feels like it has more revolutions in it under power.  Also, from a bit more than 3/4 throttle to WOT there is no rpm difference at this time.
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jet fever

  • Karma: +7/-2
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2013, 08:04:25 PM »
Do the secondaries open

Are they mech or vacuum

Just making sure u rechecked the fuel and fire

Msd with proper coil.  Its not 180 out

What Carb is it is it a new huge arb with stock tiny fuel lines

I'm a Chevy guy but even a blue oval will spin more than that stock
  • Boat #1: 76 Hallett Bubble Deck
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Vegas

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2013, 08:38:28 PM »
It's a holley 750, possibly an 850, mostly stock motor.  Secondaries open and they are vac. MSD R2R with a blaster SS coil, no balast resistor.  I doubt it is 180 out because it doesn't run bad at all, sounds really good actually.  I'm gonna check fire order in the morning.  I have 3/8" fuel line, it goes:

Tank pick ups to manual selector valve
Selector valve to fuel/water separator (1 week old)
Separator to mech fuel pump with new filter inside

I need to replace the fuel lines from tanks to the selector which I will do tomorrow, have new Gates reinforced fuel injection lines already. Coworker suggested if the lines are old or not the right quality they can suck themselves shut and restrict flow, and that is why all boats have upgraded fuel lines from automotive applications.  I won't be able to get it on the water again until sunday though.
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IRRebel

  • Karma: +16/-0
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2013, 09:07:16 PM »
It's a holley 750, possibly an 850, mostly stock motor.  Secondaries open and they are vac. MSD R2R with a blaster SS coil, no balast resistor.  I doubt it is 180 out because it doesn't run bad at all, sounds really good actually.  I'm gonna check fire order in the morning.  I have 3/8" fuel line, it goes:

Tank pick ups to manual selector valve
Selector valve to fuel/water separator (1 week old)
Separator to mech fuel pump with new filter inside

I need to replace the fuel lines from tanks to the selector which I will do tomorrow, have new Gates reinforced fuel injection lines already. Coworker suggested if the lines are old or not the right quality they can suck themselves shut and restrict flow, and that is why all boats have upgraded fuel lines from automotive applications.  I won't be able to get it on the water again until sunday though.

If it was 180* out you would know it. A couple plug wires in the wrong place, that's one I wouldn't have thought of, but worth a check. Seen that on U-Haul trucks in the past.

I'm going with the concensus that the tach is snafu. Or it's incompatible/not set up correctly with your ignition, something. 51 MPH out of a pretty heavy 19' Hallett does not equate to 2900 rpm on a stock 320 HP engine. Just not buying into that.

Also, on the hose, remember you are not loading the motor. A Jet Drive, IN the water, acts, for the most part, the same way a dynamometer does to measure crankshaft HP. The jet drive, for the most part. (I know, some of us are hitting them with 6-7-800 HP and a few well beyond that, but that is an entirely different matter). The motor is gonna quit before the jet drive does, if the jet is in decent shape. More RPM, more resistance to the engine at an exponential rate. This is why you can almost look at a Berkeley Impeller chart and find your impeller, and your max RPM, and be pretty darn close to what a dyno would tell you your max HP is AT that RPM.

A standard, marine 460 is a 320 HP deal, and usually an A impeller in the pump SHOULD let you spin up to 4600 or so RPM. My old 21' Biesemeyer had a fairly fresh, new, Harmin Marine 460 and JC-A and would spin to 48-4900 with no problem. A whopping 50 MPH.........Mind you....... Only mod was an 800 CFM carb.

I'm not saying your boat is as heavy as that old tank was, but if you're pulling 51 MPH at 2900 basically stock, we are ALL doing something WRONG!

Running the boat on the hose, you are only trying to cool the motor, and hopefully you're stuffing a hose both up the intake and up the wazoo to lubricate the pump while doing this! What is going to happen doing that is the motor is free-wheeling and will spin up to whichever gives up first, the ignition or the valvesprings.  Means nothing about where the power is, or where the problem may lie. Particularly with a Vac Sec'y carb (Which I am in the minority of being a fan of). 

Keep these things in mind playing with this thing.  ;)

Ray
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"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Holy Shit what a ride!"---Crewcheif22 AKA Keith

jet fever

  • Karma: +7/-2
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2013, 09:17:40 PM »
Stick a gauge before the Carb to see if u have six PSI going to the Carb under load
  • Boat #1: 76 Hallett Bubble Deck
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jet fever

  • Karma: +7/-2
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2013, 09:37:17 PM »
I was just trying to keep it simple

Even if the tach was wrong ur GPS should show u some more speed.  Tach wrong or not not ur issue keep on the fire and fuel path till u know neither one are wrong
  • Boat #1: 76 Hallett Bubble Deck
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Vegas

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2013, 09:39:55 PM »
I will hook up my multimeter tomorrow to verify the actual rpm's.  Does 51 mph seem like a good number though? I remember I hit 55 once with 3 people and my Bimini up with a different carb and a non working tach. I always spray another hosein the jet outlet when it is on the trailer. I have also tried all the different tach settings I have and they all show less than it does on 8 cyl. I have been working on this boat a while and I just want everything absolutely perfect. I appreciate the thoughtful responses
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jet fever

  • Karma: +7/-2
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2013, 09:50:49 PM »
Same ignition just different Carb before???

55 with a loaded boat probly not too far off there

Why did u change carbs
  • Boat #1: 76 Hallett Bubble Deck
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jet fever

  • Karma: +7/-2
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2013, 09:59:15 PM »
Although I had a 20 foot Tahiti minday and had a stock 454 iron manifold and all only thing I had was a 750dp and loaded down 4 peeps icechest ski ropes jackets anchor she ran 56 on GPS and that thing had a Panther jet.

Even bone stock u should be mid 50
  • Boat #1: 76 Hallett Bubble Deck
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IRRebel

  • Karma: +16/-0
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2013, 10:09:29 PM »
Although I had a 20 foot Tahiti minday and had a stock 454 iron manifold and all only thing I had was a 750dp and loaded down 4 peeps icechest ski ropes jackets anchor she ran 56 on GPS and that thing had a Panther jet.

Even bone stock u should be mid 50

His Hallett I would liken to my Charger. VERY heavy, well laid up boat! I can almost taste 60, consistently (It's done 67 downriver......with a tailwind.......) with my Charger now that it has an energized YJ, Diverter with a mild 455. But that is a lot of pump work to make that happen.

In Vegas's case, he has a pump/engine combo rebuilt maybe, what, 30 years ago?

No, 51 is a very respectable number, and enjoyable! Obviously, some tired hardware there, IMHO.

The "non-working tach" comment caught my eye though. Is this the SAME tach?

Ray
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 10:13:18 PM by IRRebel »
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"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Holy Shit what a ride!"---Crewcheif22 AKA Keith

Vegas

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2013, 11:23:22 PM »
The tach I had before was inop. I bought a new set of gauges and re-ran the entire boat wiring at that time.  I swapped the old 750 edelbrock off the motorbecause it made it so my tow hook would not fit, and this holley was built by a guy in pahrump who used ot build Richard Petty's carburators.  This was bought from a good friend who also sold me fresh reworked heads that were redone by John Force's machinist.  When I had the heads off, the pistons were extremely clean, and the cylinder walls were immaculate.  I ran a cold, dry compression test and the numbers were all around 125 average.  The farthest difference was 123 on one and 130 on another.  It just feels like it has more.  I am really leaning towards the fuel line, but I won't know for sure until I can get her on the water.  12JC with NO place diverter
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renegade

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Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2013, 06:50:50 AM »
Check the back of tach to make sure it is set on 8 clyinders not 4 or 6 cylinders. if its not missing or anything the motor, could be that tach.
  • Boat #1: 1976 renegade
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mash on it

  • Karma: +29/-0
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2013, 10:27:45 AM »
I was just trying to keep it simple

Even if the tach was wrong ur GPS should show u some more speed.  Tach wrong or not not ur issue keep on the fire and fuel path till u know neither one are wrong

I agree with Ray  :screwy:
My Saguaro, rigged w/ 460 ford, stock, logs and snails- 52 mph (previous owner)
Now with an L31 SBC, 55 loaded (@~4600), gps'd, closer to 60 by myself.
A 2BBL 454 pulled 4400 on an 'A' Impeller, mid 50's, @ Silverwood
A 460 stock, 51 is decent, a good tune may get a mile or 3 out of it, then its cubic dollars.  ;)

Thats all I got
Daniel
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jet fever

  • Karma: +7/-2
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2013, 11:25:35 AM »
Sorry what I meant was keep looking if the motor is done revving at 3000 grand watchingtach or not if it runs flat while u have throttle left sounds funny.
  • Boat #1: 76 Hallett Bubble Deck
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Vegas

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 460 rpm limited
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2013, 12:12:02 PM »
Yeah, sometimes the rpms will begin to drop if I am holding it at WOT as well, and if I back off on the foot pedal, it will jump back up.  Carb is adjusted well, I am about to double check my firing order and timing.  I just figured I should be able to do 55 with myself in the boat with no bimini on flat water.  I think I am going to wait until I can get some USCG approved marine fuel hose to install the new pickup lines, but I will pull the old ones off once I am done running it to see how they look.
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