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enginedoctor

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Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« on: February 11, 2012, 02:20:54 PM »
I don't recall ever seeing this topic before, could be  wrong...

Anyhow Most of us know the benefits of this to gain xtra horse power and it's other advantages..       My question is what do you guys think a full port & polish, port match, int./ex. ,bowl blend,dust chambers etc costs?? And how much time do you think it takes to do a good job on a set of heads??

Just curious to here feed back  :thumbup:
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mobboss

  • Karma: +15/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2012, 02:36:35 PM »
good subject!in my opinion, any little bit you can get out of an engine is worth it! as far as time it takes that is going to depend on the heads you are working on. and the person doing the work. a couple hours to hell all night.
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2012, 05:08:05 PM »
Good topic to start some brain activity... :thumbup:

It is my humble opinion that it really depends on what we are talking about here....

On a four wheel drive vehicle that has a high low range torque requirement for example you would not really polish or port it for the reasons you are
bringing this up, but rather would actually be "dimpled" and sometimes even made to be more disruptive to traditional flows.

For an engine that everything is having to happen at a much higher RPM and flow rate, porting, polishing, blending and even coating (thinking piston tops) makes a pretty big impact when talking
WOT performance and high horsepower expectations..

I did a Toyota 22R inline four cylinder years ago and the combustion chamber was first Extrude honed with the abrasive putty then it was dimpled much like a golf ball. At idle it acted like a diesel engine
making a ridiculous amount of torque. Yet being opened up still performed quite well on the freeway...

I have seen some pretty amazing cylinder head massaging being as my dads machine shop was virtually across the street from Gromm Racing Cylinder Heads. Some of the stuff they were doing was like artwork
polishing the ports to an almost plated like finish.

GT
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Ralph Brunt

  • Karma: +51/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2012, 05:49:55 PM »
I don't recall ever seeing this topic before, could be  wrong...

Anyhow Most of us know the benefits of this to gain xtra horse power and it's other advantages..       My question is what do you guys think a full port & polish, port match, int./ex. ,bowl blend,dust chambers etc costs?? And how much time do you think it takes to do a good job on a set of heads??

Just curious to here feed back  :thumbup:
a year ago it was 1k by hand 1250 by cnc then the valve job was another 250.00 and yes flow sheets were provided.  this was from charlie evens
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enginedoctor

  • Karma: +7/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2012, 06:20:51 PM »
a year ago it was 1k by hand 1250 by cnc then the valve job was another 250.00 and yes flow sheets were provided.  this was from charlie evens

Okay so whe are bak to how much time is involved ralph ;
 And not cnc. by hand ..  ;D try'in to get people to understand this process, any video's available?

And GT .. not talkin bout toyota's, big hp stuff :)
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enginedoctor

  • Karma: +7/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2012, 06:27:25 PM »
Ralph ,  $250.00 for a valve job ? You mean just basic v/j  yes ? no guides, parts etc?
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Ralph Brunt

  • Karma: +51/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2012, 07:14:08 PM »
Ralph ,  $250.00 for a valve job ? You mean just basic v/j  yes ? no guides, parts etc?
yes sir, just grind the seats and valves.. you pay for knowledge here, because if the wrong angles are ground you lose air flow. most guys have done this for thousands of hours in conjunction with the flow bench, so they know what works...

oh did i mention that those quotes were for aluminum heads 8) because the iron will cost you more lol lol...

now as Paul Kane has said many times, we are not racing flow benches. so dont get caught up in all that
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CHEAP, FAST, RELIABLE...PICK 2 CANT HAVE ALL 3
Quote
They are all fukin tasty. My long time favorite, "Dirty Dicks -beerjet-
Glasscutter, Skip, OC2  Nordie and many more nail me good every time, relentlessly, I love those guys!

enginedoctor

  • Karma: +7/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2012, 07:47:11 PM »
yes sir, just grind the seats and valves.. you pay for knowledge here, because if the wrong angles are ground you lose air flow. most guys have done this for thousands of hours in conjunction with the flow bench, so they know what works...

oh did i mention that those quotes were for aluminum heads 8) because the iron will cost you more lol lol...

now as Paul Kane has said many times, we are not racing flow benches. so dont get caught up in all that
I only got 34 years exp.  as a  cylinder head specialist... Thanks Ralph .  wat u thinkin??  :) Come on down and show me how it's done, seriously... We will have a good time.  Please bring Pop's too ;)
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Ralph Brunt

  • Karma: +51/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2012, 08:40:45 PM »
I only got 34 years exp.  as a  cylinder head specialist... Thanks Ralph .  wat u thinkin??  :) Come on down and show me how it's done, seriously... We will have a good time.  Please bring Pop's too ;)

you know shorty, you have forgot more than i will ever know on this subject ;)
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CHEAP, FAST, RELIABLE...PICK 2 CANT HAVE ALL 3
Quote
They are all fukin tasty. My long time favorite, "Dirty Dicks -beerjet-
Glasscutter, Skip, OC2  Nordie and many more nail me good every time, relentlessly, I love those guys!

enginedoctor

  • Karma: +7/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2012, 11:09:00 AM »
you know shorty, you have forgot more than i will ever know on this subject ;)
Haha, no Ralph...I meant that you and your POPS know alot bout this topic and that even though I've been doin this along time,technology is always changing and I'd like to learn more bout this subject   from all u guys  :thumbup: :thumbup:
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enginedoctor

  • Karma: +7/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2012, 11:17:52 AM »
Good topic to start some brain activity... :thumbup:

It is my humble opinion that it really depends on what we are talking about here....

On a four wheel drive vehicle that has a high low range torque requirement for example you would not really polish or port it for the reasons you are
bringing this up, but rather would actually be "dimpled" and sometimes even made to be more disruptive to traditional flows.

For an engine that everything is having to happen at a much higher RPM and flow rate, porting, polishing, blending and even coating (thinking piston tops) makes a pretty big impact when talking
WOT performance and high horsepower expectations..

I did a Toyota 22R inline four cylinder years ago and the combustion chamber was first Extrude honed with the abrasive putty then it was dimpled much like a golf ball. At idle it acted like a diesel engine
making a ridiculous amount of torque. Yet being opened up still performed quite well on the freeway...

I have seen some pretty amazing cylinder head massaging being as my dads machine shop was virtually across the street from Gromm Racing Cylinder Heads. Some of the stuff they were doing was like artwork
polishing the ports to an almost plated like finish.

GT
Nice info GT :thumbup: So how do you feel bout' "Hogging out/ opening up" ports to a larger size?
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2012, 01:15:40 PM »
Nice info GT :thumbup: So how do you feel bout' "Hogging out/ opening up" ports to a larger size?

All things being equal I am of the opinion that more is not necessarily better, but more importantly everything needs to be matched to one another.

sort of like hogging out the intakes but not the exhaust....In can't go "in" if it can't get "out" so to speak.

I am a huge fan of polishing and blending on race type stuff for more reasons than I have time to post, but let me just say detonation is a limitation to be dealt with and this is one of the most effective ways to do it.

On another note, blue printing (making each cylinder exactly the same) can make or break a build...

GT
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

enginedoctor

  • Karma: +7/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2012, 01:37:59 PM »
All things being equal I am of the opinion that more is not necessarily better, but more importantly everything needs to be matched to one another.

sort of like hogging out the intakes but not the exhaust....In can't go "in" if it can't get "out" so to speak.

I am a huge fan of polishing and blending on race type stuff for more reasons than I have time to post, but let me just say detonation is a limitation to be dealt with and this is one of the most effective ways to do it.

On another note, blue printing (making each cylinder exactly the same) can make or break a build...

GT
I dont follow u on (making each cylinder exactly the same) ??   U  refering to the heads ?   Also I agree with you, so port matching, polish, and blend,   Don't reconfigure the ports  correct??
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76NORDIC

  • Karma: +23/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2012, 02:44:34 PM »
Ya SHORTY, didn't ya read Ralph's post  LOL
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The definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results.....Einstein

I refuse to call people an ass anymore. It insults hard working donkeys worldwide!

enginedoctor

  • Karma: +7/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2012, 04:32:51 PM »
Hey Ralph!   Evan's Racing... thanx 4 sharin that :thumbup: :thumbup:
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76NORDIC

  • Karma: +23/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2012, 04:38:49 PM »
But did ya notice he called ya shorty like I do???   LOL
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The definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results.....Einstein

I refuse to call people an ass anymore. It insults hard working donkeys worldwide!

IRRebel

  • Karma: +16/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2012, 04:51:40 PM »
I dont follow u on (making each cylinder exactly the same) ??   U  refering to the heads ?   Also I agree with you, so port matching, polish, and blend,   Don't reconfigure the ports  correct??

Kindof unsure where you're going with this Dave, but No, every port should not flow the same or carry the same charactaristics in almost every application I can think of. You already know this. There's a huge difference between porting and simply "hogging out" existing ports, which is exactly what most CNC operations do. My 429 D2OE's cost me a touch over $1700 to have them manally done, the D3's later, a little south of that as a favour. This is a VERY "per case, instance, brand and application" based question. I also like Ralphs VERY valid point, "We don't race flow benches here".........I'm not a porter or expert, BUT.........

A TON of additional information would be needed for any qualified porter to do his thing. First example, would be Brand. BBC's fire order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 and given that order, I would see more attention to the distant corner intake ports, depending on manifold. I would also see more attention need on the center exhaust ports and header tuning to control the exhaust pulsing. On a BBF, 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8, a very different situation. I can see it being more of a bank to bank issue because the passenger side banks have already fired off 3 cylinders to the drivers side one, before #6 is fired off, and vice versa. Therefore, my mind, and kinda what was done to mine, would tell me that 1 and 5 needed less work on the intake side, more on exhaust, and the real focus point should be on 7-8 on any given head but also relegating those heads to specific Driver or passenger side in that extreme.

This isn't taking into account displacement, what exact heads, etc, etc.........Personally, I see "CNC porting" as more a gimmick than a real life performance improvement. Unless said, reputable, shop does it's "CNC Porting" oh VERY high quality equipment (NOT an old, used Bridgeport) based off measurements from a reputably done and proven set of manually ported heads, and knows exactly how to do this properly using Unigraphics or similar, you'll wind up doing more harm than good, no matter what the port size or flow numbers say. Fast ain't cheap and cheap ain't fast, and again, plug readings alone would help tell the real story as to what was needed an if it worked or not.

In other words, you cannot make a 900 HP 454 BBC using CNC ported peanut heads...........EXCEPT on Ebay.........

Ray
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enginedoctor

  • Karma: +7/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2012, 06:33:26 PM »
Kindof unsure where you're going with this Dave, but No, every port should not flow the same or carry the same charactaristics in almost every application I can think of. You already know this. There's a huge difference between porting and simply "hogging out" existing ports, which is exactly what most CNC operations do. My 429 D2OE's cost me a touch over $1700 to have them manally done, the D3's later, a little south of that as a favour. This is a VERY "per case, instance, brand and application" based question. I also like Ralphs VERY valid point, "We don't race flow benches here".........I'm not a porter or expert, BUT.........

A TON of additional information would be needed for any qualified porter to do his thing. First example, would be Brand. BBC's fire order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 and given that order, I would see more attention to the distant corner intake ports, depending on manifold. I would also see more attention need on the center exhaust ports and header tuning to control the exhaust pulsing. On a BBF, 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8, a very different situation. I can see it being more of a bank to bank issue because the passenger side banks have already fired off 3 cylinders to the drivers side one, before #6 is fired off, and vice versa. Therefore, my mind, and kinda what was done to mine, would tell me that 1 and 5 needed less work on the intake side, more on exhaust, and the real focus point should be on 7-8 on any given head but also relegating those heads to specific Driver or passenger side in that extreme.

This isn't taking into account displacement, what exact heads, etc, etc.........Personally, I see "CNC porting" as more a gimmick than a real life performance improvement. Unless said, reputable, shop does it's "CNC Porting" oh VERY high quality equipment (NOT an old, used Bridgeport) based off measurements from a reputably done and proven set of manually ported heads, and knows exactly how to do this properly using Unigraphics or similar, you'll wind up doing more harm than good, no matter what the port size or flow numbers say. Fast ain't cheap and cheap ain't fast, and again, plug readings alone would help tell the real story as to what was needed an if it worked or not.

In other words, you cannot make a 900 HP 454 BBC using CNC ported peanut heads...........EXCEPT on Ebay.........

Ray
I'm in agreement with you Ray ! Let's narrow this down to a set of BBF heads., that better? I'm jus thinking jus port match, port intakes &  ex. /bowl blend /dust chambers & have customer bring in their exhaust n intake manifolds to do this correctly... not even going to valve/seat modification here. I'm trying to keep this simple for everybody to understand.
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enginedoctor

  • Karma: +7/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2012, 07:05:05 PM »
IMHO This porting/ polishing stuff started in 1919 Ray ;)
And the objective here is to simply atomize, increases flow, deal with turbulance. That's it! And the research and developement still goes on....great subject  :)   jus IMHO
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GlassCutter

  • Karma: +31/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2012, 08:00:45 PM »
I know you know this already Dave but the number that is MOST critical it the balance between intake and exhaust.  The more efficiently the charge moves through the cylinder, the more power you make.   I don't know shit about any motors that aren't Mopar so I can't help you with any real world experience.  Back in the day Mother Mopar (then called Direct Connection) sold $15 templates that let any amatuer with enough guts to do his own at home porting with a factory blueprint.  They were very effective but overall Chrysler heads breath pretty good anyway.

Another fun fact:  Using the smaller "smog" intake valves 2.09 I think, will actually increase flow efficiency and power over the 2.18s in most cases because the charge scavenges better.   :thumbup:

And to answer your question, good quality porting is very labor intensive and $2000 isn't unheard of at all.   I think I paid Fumio Fukaya $900 to do a Datsun p/u head back in the 80's but that truck would pull the wheels off the ground an inch or two with 1800 cc.
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Ralph Brunt

  • Karma: +51/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2012, 08:18:01 PM »
i hate to dissagree but i will, if i paid a good amount of money and my flow sheet had major flow differences in ports i would be upset.. if you look at any good porters flow sheets the ports will be with in a  few cfm of each other. the cylynders flow the same, right? so why not the heads? the manifold should be flowed as well.. that would be like an 850 carb on the front and a 750 on the rear of a tunnel ram. to me that dont make sence :o
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CHEAP, FAST, RELIABLE...PICK 2 CANT HAVE ALL 3
Quote
They are all fukin tasty. My long time favorite, "Dirty Dicks -beerjet-
Glasscutter, Skip, OC2  Nordie and many more nail me good every time, relentlessly, I love those guys!

GlassCutter

  • Karma: +31/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2012, 09:09:32 PM »
Consider the source Ralph.   Ray marches to a different drummer.   Have you seen his boats?  :screwy:

Sorry Ray, I had to . . .
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"Go ahead Rivertard does it.  Take a video though."

"If you did it in a dodge it would have shifted perfectly ran a thousand miles per hour and got optimum fuel mileage!"  Nordie  2012

GlassCutter

  • Karma: +31/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2012, 09:10:00 PM »
Consider the source Ralph.   Ray marches to a different drummer.   Have you seen his boats?  :screwy:

Sorry Ray, I had to . . .
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"Go ahead Rivertard does it.  Take a video though."

"If you did it in a dodge it would have shifted perfectly ran a thousand miles per hour and got optimum fuel mileage!"  Nordie  2012

enginedoctor

  • Karma: +7/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2012, 09:21:10 PM »
I know you know this already Dave but the number that is MOST critical it the balance between intake and exhaust.  The more efficiently the charge moves through the cylinder, the more power you make.   I don't know shit about any motors that aren't Mopar so I can't help you with any real world experience.  Back in the day Mother Mopar (then called Direct Connection) sold $15 templates that let any amatuer with enough guts to do his own at home porting with a factory blueprint.  They were very effective but overall Chrysler heads breath pretty good anyway.

Another fun fact:  Using the smaller "smog" intake valves 2.09 I think, will actually increase flow efficiency and power over the 2.18s in most cases because the charge scavenges better.   :thumbup:
Yes, I know this... 'In & OUT"...That's the key taught that by Joe Mondello/ n a few gal's :)

And to answer your question, good quality porting is very labor intensive and $2000 isn't unheard of at all.   I think I paid Fumio Fukaya $900 to do a Datsun p/u head back in the 80's but that truck would pull the wheels off the ground an inch or two with 1800 cc.
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enginedoctor

  • Karma: +7/-0
Re: Cylinder Head Porting & Polishing
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2012, 09:35:46 PM »
Glass cutter I think I screwed up my responce to you, i'm sorry  :) i agree with you Sir!

Ralph thought you said flow bench is not the race here  :-X

We are trying to optimize  flow here, yes ?  In & out !!!!! eliminate bumps, stress risers in the quench area and flow throughout the heads right? IMHO.
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