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socaljst1970

  • Karma: +8/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2014, 02:54:51 AM »
Thanks for all the comments guys - to address some of the questions

What RPM does this deal idle? - I had this boat on the water for about 15 minutes of my ownership - idle was low.  (wont be anymore thats for sure)

What do you have controlling water flow? - Nothing that i see - bought a gate valve and adapters to install on motor side, exhaust is fed from the pump on its own system - I am seeing that is all wrong based on what i am reading here - sounds like i should feed the headers from the motor out (which currently just dumps out the side of the hull)

Is there a dump line anywhere? -will take some pics of that specifically, but again, i should reroute this i take it

Even a remote wild ass guess as to what the running block pressure is? - clueless on this - gate valve in hand though and going in w/gauge

What temperature does it run (may have missed that)? - when i took it out it didnt seem to build any.  headers were cool to touch while running.  another indicator of maybe just too much damn water? i imagine a little heat in them is ok?

Where does your ignition timing run at idle and above 2,500RPM? - another unknown due to new ownership
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socaljst1970

  • Karma: +8/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2014, 03:07:13 AM »
One more question.... Where the hell is your header water coming from? The water should be hot (over 120°), from the engine. I can't see how that would be the case... What am i missing?

GT

Hope these pictures shed more light - there are what appear to be two separate water systems totally.  One comes from the pump through the transom, to a T and runs -8 or -10 to the headers and thats it for that system.  I see no regulation unless its in the T and whatever the rails reduce to.

The second also comes from the pump, lower in the transom, to the T above the battery switch then into the 'water pump' holes and 'out' the thermostat housing on the intake.  From there it goes out the side into two dumps on the driver side.  Also, not seeing regulation of anykind.  I have a Gate valve going in place of the T per suggestions from others. 

Ok here are the pics that might show better than my 'cant sleep over this crap' typing......   

On a side note: thank you everyone for the help and info.

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got the squirts

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2014, 07:09:58 AM »
I had a similar problem with exhaust  reversion new engine build 540 stroker motor turned out my cam was not ground to the right specs took the cam out reground by Steve long @ Steve long racing cams problem went away...... Before having the cam ground motor ran fantastic on the trailer no problems as soon as I would hook it up to water boom water in the oil. Like immediately


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beerjet

  • Karma: +81/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2014, 07:19:14 AM »
Just drop this pile off....
I'll give you mine, it's turn key and always has been.
problem solved!

-beerjet-

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i dont but im all for stuffin shit in her ass to make her go away :-*

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2014, 08:56:43 AM »
Hope these pictures shed more light - there are what appear to be two separate water systems totally.  One comes from the pump through the transom, to a T and runs -8 or -10 to the headers and thats it for that system.  I see no regulation unless its in the T and whatever the rails reduce to.

The second also comes from the pump, lower in the transom, to the T above the battery switch then into the 'water pump' holes and 'out' the thermostat housing on the intake.  From there it goes out the side into two dumps on the driver side.  Also, not seeing regulation of anykind.  I have a Gate valve going in place of the T per suggestions from others. 

Ok here are the pics that might show better than my 'cant sleep over this crap' typing......   

On a side note: thank you everyone for the help and info.

This set up is so incorrect that I am not even a little shocked that it puked.

Let me do some research and see if I can come up with a proven game plan.

You should get the front of the motor pulled apart to identify your mystery cam. Otherwise it is a shot in the dark as far as not having to go through all this again.

You can have that camshaft in your hand in just a couple of hours.

Jmho

GT



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  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

socaljst1970

  • Karma: +8/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2014, 09:01:02 AM »
This set up is so incorrect that I am not even a little shocked that it puked.

Let me do some research and see if I can come up with a proven game plan.

You should get the front of the motor pulled apart to identify your mystery cam. Otherwise it is a shot in the dark as far as not having to go through all this again.

You can have that camshaft in your hand in just a couple of hours.

Jmho

GT



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Thanks GT - looking forward to your reply and will check out just tugging the cam when back at the house, might just do that if access is realistic.  thanks
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2014, 09:19:30 AM »
Thanks GT - looking forward to your reply and will check out just tugging the cam when back at the house, might just do that if access is realistic.  thanks

Do you have a way to pull the motor?

In my experience, the time savings is well worth it.

Typically if we had more than two hours of oily engine work to do,  we would spend the thirty minutes taking the motor out and bolting it to a stand.

I find that you can catch more unseen issues that way too...

GT

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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

socaljst1970

  • Karma: +8/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2014, 09:22:20 AM »
Do you have a way to pull the motor?

In my experience, the time savings is well worth it.

Typically if we had more than two hours of oily engine work to do,  we would spend the thirty minutes taking the motor out and bolting it to a stand.

I find that you can catch more unseen issues that way too...

GT

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At that point i would have to take it to a shop.  The boat sits so high on the trailer that pulling the motor in the garage with a picker just wouldn't work, and I cant (wont) do it in the driveway. 
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2014, 01:54:55 PM »
At that point i would have to take it to a shop.  The boat sits so high on the trailer that pulling the motor in the garage with a picker just wouldn't work, and I cant (wont) do it in the driveway.

That blows.

Here is what I came up with.

I am working with a phone here with the app so I may be going back in later and editing this.

Water routing.

From the jet pump water port, go directly to a Gate valve. I use a 3/4" Red And White, but brand is not really important but it should be 3/4". I do know that the port from the pump is much smaller.  That is ok.

From the gate valve to an open tee, one leg going to each water pump hole in the front of the block.

Out of the thermostat cover (no stat) twice one to each header cooling manifold.

Out of the intake manifold a third time to another gate valve, but this time use a 1/2" from that valve to the dump line.  The outlet of the dump fitting (the orifice of the fitting itself) should be about 5/16" max.

Done.

Setting it up.

Start the engine in the water with the pump gate valve mostly open and the outlet valve 100% closed. After a couple of minutes at idle start to close the pump valve until the engine warns up to a very consistent 150°F. Use your hand or an infra red thermometer on the exhaust pipe after the header and try to get the pipe to about 190° F using the outlet valve, own will make the headers warmer, closed cooler and so on.

You may have to dick around with them a little to get then to balance out.

The idle should be about 1,100 or so.  Being as we do not know the cam grind. Once you know and/or change the cam we can revisit this.

Take it for a short spin at around 3500 rpm, the temperature should drop, I would expect to about 130 or so. Hit the headers again to see what the temperatures are (obviously be super careful) they should still be in the 200°F range.

It might be necessary to reduce the water flow to the hoses going to each header with a washer to get the engine temp up a bit.  Use 316 stainless washers and go with a hole 1/4" you can put the washers right at the hose connection at each water manifold.

Run the set up again.

Once set, this thing will be pretty fool proof.  The are no moving parts.  That said.  Tie wrap the valve handles once you have things working.

The surface temperature of the headers should be around 180°F with a 150°F engine water temp.

There are a couple of other ways I came up with to do this, but this one is the simplest to adjust.

Keep in the back of your mind that with jetting or altitude changes, the exhaust temps will rise and fall. Just keep an eye on it.

Let me know on that cam.

Also too. If you put milkshake oil in a turkey fryer set to about 275°F you can get every drop of water out of it... Making it reusable. Just be sure to change out the filter.

That is a white water guys secret, so don't tell anybody. ..  :-\

GT

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« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 02:03:15 PM by GT Jets »
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

socaljst1970

  • Karma: +8/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2014, 02:21:28 PM »
Sounds great - will start and see if I can find a dial indicator (harbor freight for a one time user?) and get some cam specs while ordering up some water lines and fittings.

Can i pull/plug either side of the pump providing the two systems water since i will just go down to one?  Or is there a difference between the sides (other than where they route to right now)? 
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2014, 07:05:41 PM »
Sounds great - will start and see if I can find a dial indicator (harbor freight for a one time user?) and get some cam specs while ordering up some water lines and fittings.

Can i pull/plug either side of the pump providing the two systems water since i will just go down to one?  Or is there a difference between the sides (other than where they route to right now)?

Harbor Freight often carries Starrett and I think General measuring tools. You should be fine going that route.

As for the dual water lines, either will work fine, I like the one on the left side, but only because that is where 90% of them out there are.


GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

socaljst1970

  • Karma: +8/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2014, 09:47:28 PM »
Absurd amount of work to be doing every night after work, but thanks all for the tips and hints.   GT & the Beaver - you two are awesome help! 

coming together day by day.....

last few pics are worth a thousand words....

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ec7dcnx5cp417hq/AACmw1fhqAnM08EEeb3ueT6va?dl=0
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socaljst1970

  • Karma: +8/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2014, 10:57:33 AM »
hey gang - during re-assembly another issue popped up.  got a few collapsed lifters and need some advice.  The current lifters (shown) are tie bar style and therefore cannot be taken apart properly to clean - tried all the ways to free them up but to not avail.....

Since my block is a Gen VI, I can use the GM kit or I can just replace the three sets of jacked up bar-tied lifters.  Which is better and why?  Thanks!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-66291x874-2  - this would replace what i have and would need 3 of them

http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet+Performance/809/12371056/10002/-1  - this would replace all and cost the same basically

which way do I go?

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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2014, 04:45:26 PM »
Those Crower 66291s are solids and are not compatible with your hydraulic roller cam

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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2014, 05:10:38 PM »
I'm not sure about those Engine Works lifters or even if this link is to the same Engine Works, but if it is, you might have a set of rebranded Morel lifters.

http://www.engine-worksperformance.com/Default.aspx?tabid=136&Search=Cat4&Cat4=H

If so, and you have an aggressive cam and are turning high RPM, the factory GM lifters won't give you the same RPM potential.
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socaljst1970

  • Karma: +8/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2014, 05:13:46 PM »
thanks - aware am looking for hydraulic - just randomly picked from the huge list on roller lifters - anyhow, so the retro fit ones are better than GM or are you saying the quality of an aftermarket will still just be better than the GM stuff?  cant imagine i am looking at more than 5200 rpm, but dont want to do this twice for sure....
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socaljst1970

  • Karma: +8/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2014, 05:15:45 PM »
I'm not sure about those Engine Works lifters or even if this link is to the same Engine Works, but if it is, you might have a set of rebranded Morel lifters.

http://www.engine-worksperformance.com/Default.aspx?tabid=136&Search=Cat4&Cat4=H

If so, and you have an aggressive cam and are turning high RPM, the factory GM lifters won't give you the same RPM potential.

best i can tell they are out of biz and were a private labeler of some sort (morel as stated maybe) - but really looking to know if i am going backwards using the stock GM roller items from GMPP
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2014, 05:29:20 PM »
thanks - aware am looking for hydraulic - just randomly picked from the huge list on roller lifters - anyhow, so the retro fit ones are better than GM or are you saying the quality of an aftermarket will still just be better than the GM stuff?  cant imagine i am looking at more than 5200 rpm, but dont want to do this twice for sure....

This thread has some information of interest to you

http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32193
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2014, 05:41:24 PM »
5200 RPM shouldn't be a problem with any lifter but be careful, mixing and matching brands could result in the need for different push rod lengths.

If your valvetrain geometry is anywhere near correct now, different brands and/or styles of lifters might have different heights and will require different length push rods.  The good news is there really aren't many manufacturers of hydraulic roller lifters.
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socaljst1970

  • Karma: +8/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2014, 09:04:09 PM »
Ended up going with a fresh set of GM lifters made for the block.  Uses the factory hold down tray in the block (aka cheaper lifters without tie bars) but is done and should be fine lifters for my expectations.  Also followed GT's instruction on the routing of the water  to the headers (which are just back from Jan at lightning performance who checked for internal cracks/leaks and added some length to extended the mix point further out - a more recent mod he is doing to fight reversion). 

Finally got to put fire in the holes this afternoon and it ran on the hose.  Thank goodness.  This has been an unwanted, LONG houred, and expensive trip down boat motor road, but I am nearing first water test  :) 

Quick video below from this afternoon, quite a different sound from the first time I sat it in the water when it was a milkshake machine. 

Listening to the audio on the first video when I got the boat and idled it at the launch ramp after repairing the starter (yes i am being a monday morning quarterback on myself) you can clearly hear the dead hole popping like a gun randomly.....  chalk up missing that at first to a learning experience. 

Most of all, thanks to all of you for your knowledge and support while helping me not go nutty trying to get my family back on the water!  This forum and its members are second to none in my opinion.

Todays hose run -

Day i fixed starter but missed the V7 sound - http://youtu.be/riECL6ZTVlc?list=UUuN1gVNIFpEj5kXrTRE4iTQ
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2014, 09:58:24 PM »
Ended up going with a fresh set of GM lifters made for the block.  Uses the factory hold down tray in the block (aka cheaper lifters without tie bars) but is done and should be fine lifters for my expectations.  Also followed GT's instruction on the routing of the water  to the headers (which are just back from Jan at lightning performance who checked for internal cracks/leaks and added some length to extended the mix point further out - a more recent mod he is doing to fight reversion). 

Finally got to put fire in the holes this afternoon and it ran on the hose.  Thank goodness.  This has been an unwanted, LONG houred, and expensive trip down boat motor road, but I am nearing first water test  :) 

Quick video below from this afternoon, quite a different sound from the first time I sat it in the water when it was a milkshake machine. 

Listening to the audio on the first video when I got the boat and idled it at the launch ramp after repairing the starter (yes i am being a monday morning quarterback on myself) you can clearly hear the dead hole popping like a gun randomly.....  chalk up missing that at first to a learning experience. 

Most of all, thanks to all of you for your knowledge and support while helping me not go nutty trying to get my family back on the water!  This forum and its members are second to none in my opinion.

Todays hose run -

Day i fixed starter but missed the V7 sound - http://youtu.be/riECL6ZTVlc?list=UUuN1gVNIFpEj5kXrTRE4iTQ

Cool, be sure to update on how the test goes.... On pins and needles over here. Actually wish you were closer.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

socaljst1970

  • Karma: +8/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion Revisited......
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2014, 03:13:47 PM »
Nearing completion!  Was on the water for a while today.  New alternator fixed the charging issue - 3rd flush of oil and am clear of nasties and the boat ran well.  Stay on the primaries the whole time only while building confidence in the setup, but have it almost right for us!  Had to come in early though, parked on the beach put the hull at an angle and the transom adapter was leaking really strong.  Working on some caulking skills now!



http://youtu.be/VXE_-AF8Bl4?list=UUuN1gVNIFpEj5kXrTRE4iTQ
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