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SoCalPSD

  • Karma: +4/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2015, 07:45:17 AM »
..........when we return to "what floats your boat" will gt prove his point again, will another gate valve be used, will this turn into another 30 page discussion. Stay tuned and find out.





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In my best "grandad" voice with a cigarette hanging out of my mouth....  "if a day goes by and you learn nothing, I hope like hell you got a lot of sleep".... :thumbup:

mash on it

  • Karma: +29/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2015, 08:45:59 AM »
The cooling system seals on an engine are only designed for 13-15 psi or so. Putting 50-60 psi in an engine is stupid. It may hold on some engines, but there is no reason to raise the boiling point that high. A proper cooling system needs a restriction on the outlet (valve or an orifice in t-stat housing) to raise the pressure above 0 to raise the boiling point over 212F and to help keep steam pockets from forming.

If you really want to control the temp correctly a closed system with a heat exchanger would be a better idea.

So, at 13 to 15 lbs on the block gives a boiling point of...???

At 135*, how long will it take to get to 212*, or 242*?

When using raw water cooling, why would (any) one run the engine temp more than 50* to 60* above lake temp?

Just questions...

Dan'l


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philofab

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2015, 09:32:37 AM »
Keeping an engine too cool will reduce combustion chamber temp. You want heat in the combustion chamber to make power. Tuning also changes with temp so a boat that has an engine that does not fluctuate temperature will be easier to keep in tune.

There is a reason the average car runs between 210-220F. It's more efficient and you end up with a cleaner burn than if the engine is at 150F.



You want pressure in the block to raise the boiling point, even though the engine will mostly run at a set temp, some parts of it will be warmer and cooler than wherever your sending unit it. That means some spots could get over 212F (boiling point at one bar) and create a steam pocket. Once that steam pocket is created there will be no cooling at that location until it is removed.
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2015, 09:55:47 AM »
Keeping an engine too cool will reduce combustion chamber temp. You want heat in the combustion chamber to make power. Tuning also changes with temp so a boat that has an engine that does not fluctuate temperature will be easier to keep in tune.

There is a reason the average car runs between 210-220F. It's more efficient and you end up with a cleaner burn than if the engine is at 150F.



You want pressure in the block to raise the boiling point, even though the engine will mostly run at a set temp, some parts of it will be warmer and cooler than wherever your sending unit it. That means some spots could get over 212F (boiling point at one bar) and create a steam pocket. Once that steam pocket is created there will be no cooling at that location until it is removed.

I'm going to circle back to this at lunch.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2015, 09:56:23 AM »
..........when we return to "what floats your boat" will gt prove his point again, will another gate valve be used, will this turn into another 30 page discussion. Stay tuned and find out.





We will be right back after a short commercial break.

You a funny guy.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

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Ray

el mojado

  • Karma: +15/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2015, 11:25:39 AM »
Is the water allowed to stay in the system long enough to even reach a "warm" temperature? Or should it be?
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philofab

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2015, 12:05:07 PM »
I'm going to circle back to this at lunch.

Please don't tell me I am wrong. I hate when people tell me I am wrong.
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mash on it

  • Karma: +29/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2015, 12:07:41 PM »
Keeping an engine too cool will reduce combustion chamber temp. You want heat in the combustion chamber to make power. Tuning also changes with temp so a boat that has an engine that does not fluctuate temperature will be easier to keep in tune.

There is a reason the average car runs between 210-220F. It's more efficient and you end up with a cleaner burn than if the engine is at 150F.

For emissions, not horsepower


You want pressure in the block to raise the boiling point, even though the engine will mostly run at a set temp, some parts of it will be warmer and cooler than wherever your sending unit it. That means some spots could get over 212F (boiling point at one bar) and create a steam pocket. Once that steam pocket is created there will be no cooling at that location until it is removed.

At 135*F, what is running at 212*F +? (logs and snails)
At 120*F, what is running at 212*F +? (Headers)


Is the water allowed to stay in the system long enough to even reach a "warm" temperature? Or should it be?

On a single pass system, 50 to 60* above lake temp is fine, and with headers, 40* rise is enough.
In 55* water below Hoover Dam, Mine runs @ 120-125*F. Lake Mohave, 88* water temp in August, runs at ~140*F, and the long 'no wake zone' @ Katherines creeps up to 150-155*F.
Oil temp is more important, IMHO

Dan'l
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selbycnlb

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2015, 12:40:43 PM »
My set up is solid old brass to gate to double sided garden hose hookup to braided hose that tees into duel inlet. The outlet coming out intake has gauge for outlet water pressure. Duel overboard hose going straight overboard and a line that goes to a valve then a tee then the headers. I have usable pressure 5-20 at idle through 3000 Rpms. After my secondaries kick in the water pressure coming out of the engine is 70+. Still getting water in my oil.Gonna throw a relief valve on the intake side after the gate to relieve to overboard discharge. Any possibility of the water coming threw exhaust? My cam is not too lopey.


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87hardin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2015, 01:01:21 PM »
Holly  crap!! Im getting dizzy
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philofab

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2015, 01:35:09 PM »
My set up is solid old brass to gate to double sided garden hose hookup to braided hose that tees into duel inlet. The outlet coming out intake has gauge for outlet water pressure. Duel overboard hose going straight overboard and a line that goes to a valve then a tee then the headers. I have usable pressure 5-20 at idle through 3000 Rpms. After my secondaries kick in the water pressure coming out of the engine is 70+. Still getting water in my oil.Gonna throw a relief valve on the intake side after the gate to relieve to overboard discharge. Any possibility of the water coming threw exhaust? My cam is not too lopey.

Check the gate valve if it's old. I had a Olds engine that kept pushing water until I figured out the gate valve ball was corroded away allowing it to be fully open regardless of the valve position. 70psi is wayyyy too high.
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selbycnlb

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2015, 02:32:52 PM »
Valve throttles. What water pressure do you guys read at idle? My gauge reads to 90 gonna switch to 30 so I can get a more accurate reading and anything higher is no good anyways


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TIMINATOR

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2015, 09:05:29 AM »
Block pressure will vary depending on: where the gauge is installed in relation to the dump line
                                                         what size dump line and how many of them
                                                         what is the dump line fitting outlet size
                                                         head gasket design I.E. car or marine
                                                         water feed line and "T" size
                                                         max engine RPM/HP (higher RPM means more bowl pressure)
                                                         nozzle size (changes bowl pressure)                 
                                                         bowl and impeller type (see above)
                                                         BB Chevys depend upon the year of the block, I.E. 1,2,or 3 center/lower coolant deck holes and     
                                                              Gen 4,5,or 6, they have different front and rear deck holes
                                                                        TIMINATOR
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2015, 11:16:35 AM »
Block pressure will vary depending on: where the gauge is installed in relation to the dump line
                                                         what size dump line and how many of them
                                                         what is the dump line fitting outlet size
                                                         head gasket design I.E. car or marine
                                                         water feed line and "T" size
                                                         max engine RPM/HP (higher RPM means more bowl pressure)
                                                         nozzle size (changes bowl pressure)                 
                                                         bowl and impeller type (see above)
                                                         BB Chevys depend upon the year of the block, I.E. 1,2,or 3 center/lower coolant deck holes and     
                                                              Gen 4,5,or 6, they have different front and rear deck holes
                                                                        TIMINATOR

Not picking on you. I swear.

The block pressure will be the same from the control valve (whether it's a pressure regulator, a bypass, or a gate valve) all the way to right before the dunno fitting. If there is a difference, you won't have a precision enough instrument to read it.

RPM will change the bowl pressure unless you change impellers,  not when you change impellers.

The head gasket type can alter the pressure but should not alter the flow requirement.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

selbycnlb

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2015, 02:37:35 PM »
My pressure rises with more rpms


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selbycnlb

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2015, 02:52:30 PM »
Pressure gauge is located where the thermostat would be.(outlet)

There are also two 1/2 outlet lines going overboard ,as well as the water line going to the headers, coming off the same tower.
 I want to know what your water pressure is at idle so I can know how far I can throttle down my gate valve on the inlet without getting steam pockets


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TIMINATOR

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2015, 03:48:07 PM »
GT I disagree.
You all figure it out since I don't like to restrict the flow anyway.
The abovementioned info was a result of over 40 years of being both a performance machine shop owner/operator specializing in boat engines AND pump builder/ machinist.   
Others experiences may vary.   
TIMINATOR
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JET PUMPS!!!
PM or call me with JETTECH questions for HOTBOAT MAGAZINE!!  see them in the magazine!! OOPS! not anymore! HOTBOAT is boobs up! MODESTY IS A CRUTCH FOR THE INCOMPETENT!

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2015, 04:07:11 PM »
GT I disagree.
You all figure it out since I don't like to restrict the flow anyway.
The abovementioned info was a result of over 40 years of being both a performance machine shop owner/operator specializing in boat engines AND pump builder/ machinist.   
Others experiences may vary.   
TIMINATOR

I'm not going through the pedigree thing again.

However, you have to restrict the flow in one way or another. It could be something as simple as the original Berkeley JA and JB pumps with the pump fitting that was 3|8" X 5/8" hose barb with the 1/4" hole size.

A hard running jet can develop about 25-30 GPM of cooling water flow, that's a lot of water being as it takes about 5 GPM to keep 600 HP cool.
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

selbycnlb

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2015, 04:39:04 PM »
So your saying 5 is enough got it


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TIMINATOR

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2015, 06:41:28 AM »
30 gallons per minute is a gallon every 2 seconds, thru a 3/8" hole.........    somebody take a garden hose which is 5/8" I.D, and standard municipal water pressure is 50-60 lbs, and see how long it takes to put a gallon in a bucket. Question everything, it makes you smarter.    just saying....   TIMINATOR
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TUFENUF MARINE PERFORMANCE  623-877-8553
COMPLETE ENGINE MACHINESHOP & PERFORMANCE
JET PUMPS!!!
PM or call me with JETTECH questions for HOTBOAT MAGAZINE!!  see them in the magazine!! OOPS! not anymore! HOTBOAT is boobs up! MODESTY IS A CRUTCH FOR THE INCOMPETENT!

selbycnlb

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2015, 08:17:26 AM »
Does water pressure measure gpm or psi?


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selbycnlb

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2015, 08:19:14 AM »
But is 5 enough to keep er cool without steam pockets (gpm or psi)


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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2015, 08:41:05 AM »
But is 5 enough to keep er cool without steam pockets (gpm or psi)


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No, I blew that number out of my ass.  It's closer to 11.

Sorry.
Not sure what you are going to do with that info anyway.

Keep the pressure at WOT below 20 and above 12 and your gold.



GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

selbycnlb

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2015, 02:03:33 PM »
Trying to keep water out of my oil is what I'm trying to do with the info


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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2015, 02:50:56 PM »
I think he means that you are most likely not going to connect and monitor a flowmeter.

Pressure is the result of resistance to flow and would be measured in Pounds per Square Inch (PSI)

Flow is stated in units of volume over time.  Depending on the flow rate, could be Gallons Per Minute (GPM) or Gallons Per Hour (GPH).

You can have pressure with no flow, but for flow to occur, a pressure differential must exist.  Flow is always from an area of high pressure to an area of low pressure.

Not trying to stir the pot here, but, in an open loop cooling system; if a pressure gauge is installed at various points in the system, starting in the jet pump bowl, then in the cooling line just as it exits the pump, again in the cooling line as it enters the engine at the water pump bosses, in the drain plug, in each of the core plugs in the block, in both of the core plugs in the head, at both ends of the intake manifold, in the thermostat housing, in the hose just as the water exists the engine, and lastly just before the water dumps over the side; (little long winded there) you would observe that each gauge indicates a pressure drop.  The bowl would have the highest pressure and just as the water dumps over the side, it would be at 0PSIG. This is because of fluid friction.  Every hose and fitting is a restriction as are all of the passages in the block, heads, and manifolds.  The surface finish of the inside of the engine, hoses, etc. adds to this fluid friction.  The shape of the entry/exit of each of the fittings, be it squared with just a drilled hole, chamfered, or fully-radiused.  Are the fittings 45 or 90-degrees?  Drilled or smooth bends?

The question becomes, where is the correct location to take a reading?  If in the thermostat housing, everything up to that point is going to be higher pressure than what the gauge indicates.  Right before the water enters the engine would be the safest, at least the water pressure beyond that point will be less.

Cheers,

Joe
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

 


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