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Ckaz21

  • Karma: +1/-0
Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« on: March 06, 2014, 08:24:00 PM »
Anyone no how much hp stock 049 heads will support without putting the bigger valves in? Machinist wants $500 in labor for installing bigger valves and that doesn't include parts! Might keep them as is.


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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2014, 10:24:30 PM »
What is the rest of your combo?

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Ckaz21

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2014, 10:28:11 PM »
Dunno yet lol. Right now I have my 454 disassembled. I'm for sure going to throw in some comp pistons to get it to 10:1. Not sure on what cam to run. I think that the cam all depends on what I do with the heads. I might go aftermarket, that why I'm wonder how much hp the heads can flow. I know that stock they flow 270cfm on the intake but I have no Idea how much hp that will support.


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Ckaz21

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2014, 10:28:39 PM »
*high comp


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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2014, 11:05:13 PM »
Let me put it to you like this.

Bigger is not always better. Build the motor to what you have.

It is my humble opinion that the $500 would be better spent elsewhere.

stock port matched 049 heads should have no strain getting into the 550-600 HP range if built the the existing valves, not sure you would get a huge gain with larger valves as they will not be the limiting factor.

Bigger valves are many times like great eyesight, nice to have, but if you don't have it, you can't see what you are missing.    :o
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2014, 11:50:12 PM »
Mid 600s are entirely achievable NA.  What kind of engine would you LIKE to build?

Might I suggest, if you go supercharged, you could push enough air through those heads to easily make well over 1,000HP.  I would really suggest looking into a decent centrifugal.  Dollar for dollar, you will make more HP supercharged than you will ever make with that engine and any aftermarket head naturally aspirated.  No need for costly porting.  And you will have a variable HP engine where you can change boost levels to suit your needs.

Could you please elaborate more on the vehicle for which this engine is destined?
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2014, 11:58:17 PM »
Bigger is not always better...

...they will not be the limiting factor.

X2

Bigger valves will also shroud more, unnecessarily.
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Ckaz21

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2014, 01:11:46 AM »
The engine is going in my jet boat. Its a berk jg with A impeller. Engine is the stock hardin marine 330hp 454. It has 049 heads though. I tore the engine apart cause 330hp isn't enough. I want to it 80mph this year. Guessing I'm going to need at least 550hp so I'm trying to get the engine in that range. I won't have enough cash to supercharge although that would be awesome. I have about a $2500 budget. I was thinking bore it 60 over. New pop up pistons, new cam(no idea which to get tho), new rods and maybe sell my 049 heads and get a set of after markets or keep them if you guys think they will support that much hp while be n/a...? Thanks in advance


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Ckaz21

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2014, 01:30:22 AM »
Additional info: Tahiti caribbean model 18ft



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rush1

  • Karma: +18/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2014, 05:37:51 AM »
You could bolt a weiend  super charger on that thing for 1800 dollars and get just at 500 hp

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  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2014, 07:53:06 AM »
80 mph on 500 HP?

In a Tahiti?

How fast is it as is?

I think your goal is a little ambitious. Raise the HP or lower the mph.

JMHO. FWIW.

GT

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  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

rush1

  • Karma: +18/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2014, 08:13:04 AM »
I'm not saying how fast I'm just saying by bolting on that Huffer on that stock motor he'll get 500 he out of it, I just wonder how long the bottom end will hold together.

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Six-Oh-Nine

  • Karma: +28/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2014, 09:19:23 AM »
Actual dyno hp? Or internet hp?


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Ckaz21

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2014, 02:43:19 PM »
Realistically I think it'll need 600hp to hit 80mph. And yes I am looking for 550-600 dyno hp. Right now the boat is bone stock no loader or diverter and it only did 55mph at 4,200 rpm.


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DDP1084

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2014, 03:26:52 PM »
To go from 55 mph to 80 your going to spend more the $2500.
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73nordicbbc

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2014, 03:41:31 PM »
Why only 55? If the pump is good it should do 60? I have a heavy 18'. With my new impeller

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73nordicbbc

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2014, 03:44:39 PM »
.. I'm hitting 65 upstream and my motor is pretty much "stock". I'm .030" over have a crower mild cam and a 750holly on top. Nothin crazy?

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Six-Oh-Nine

  • Karma: +28/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2014, 03:50:03 PM »
Realistically I think it'll need 600hp to hit 80mph. And yes I am looking for 550-600 dyno hp. Right now the boat is bone stock no loader or diverter and it only did 55mph at 4,200 rpm.


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I just had to ask since a lot of people like to throw around big hp numbers for minimal effort like that shit is free or something. >:D

I'm gonna assume you're looking to build a pump gas friendly engine... more than likely in the upper 9:1- low10:1 range? And seeing that your budget is in the 2500 range... we'll rule out things like strokers, roller cams, and pretty much any more than bare bones machine work.

Realistically, on a pump gas build, with stock 2.065 and 1.72 valves, and just a slight port work, flat tapper, within the confines of what you have to work with, you will not see mid 600's with a 468... just not going to happen in reality... internet/ebay/craigslist perhaps, but not in your boat in an rpm range that you'll actually need to be working in. That would mean that you would need to make 1.4hp per inch... and a warmed over stocker ain't gonna get close to that... especially when designed to work in the upper 5k lower 6k rpm range. I'd say a more realistic goal within those parameters would be the 1.1-1.2ish range... and even then, you're gonna need to sharpen up your pencil and figure out a nice combo that works well together. Now, you wish to go with more head work, or add some compression, or roller, or a combo of all the above, and 600 on up is not a problem with 049 heads.

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Ckaz21

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2014, 07:04:26 PM »
Yeah I see what you guys are saying. Maybe I'll just buy a stroker kit and new cam for now. Then do the heads and maybe a better cam later on. Either way I'm getting it dynoed so I'll be sure to post the numbers with my combo.


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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2014, 11:21:46 PM »
If your block is standard bore now and will clean up with .030 overbore; the performance gain from boring your block to the max is far outweighed by the reduction in life and rigidity.

On another note, in the pursuit of your 80 MPH goal, you should also focus on getting your boat to ride right as well as ensuring your pump is performing well.

Look at the system as a whole.  The engine is just one part.
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2014, 11:50:47 PM »
I'm not saying how fast I'm just saying by bolting on that Huffer on that stock motor he'll get 500 he out of it, I just wonder how long the bottom end will hold together.

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rush1, I was using the below quote for the 80MPH

The engine is going in my jet boat. Its a berk jg with A impeller. Engine is the stock hardin marine 330hp 454. It has 049 heads though. I tore the engine apart cause 330hp isn't enough. I want to it 80mph this year. Guessing I'm going to need at least 550hp so I'm trying to get the engine in that range. I won't have enough cash to supercharge although that would be awesome. I have about a $2500 budget. I was thinking bore it 60 over. New pop up pistons, new cam(no idea which to get tho), new rods and maybe sell my 049 heads and get a set of after markets or keep them if you guys think they will support that much hp while be n/a...? Thanks in advance


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Ckaz21, I am not trying to criticize you.

Just want you to know that to get that hull to see 80mph is very, very optimistic. (please read impossible) with your $2500 budget, I don't care if you started with a 600 HP motor.

Here are the facts;

You have 330 HP and the boat does 55 MPH (for the record, something seems off with the math because your rpm range is pitiful).
Your boat is in full family trim (read "eating pork often").
It virtually costs $2500 do do a pretty straight forward rebuild, much less double the rated HP.

These are pretty hard for me to ignore.

I have an honest 85 MPH jet, it had roughly 650 HP at 5,200 RPM, extensive bottom work on the bottom of an already light (between 500 and 600 pounds) hull, extensive pump work, custom built loader, Place Diverter, stuffer plate, fiberglass bucket seat (2), no rear seat, two aluminum fuel tanks at less than 1/4 tank, 850 dp massaged to obtain 890 flow bench verified CFM at -1.5 "hg vacuum, MSD system 468 Chevy. The boat was a little hairy to drive, needed a droop very badly and had the last few feet of boat "wet" she was aired out to the point of scary.

With a boat twice as heavy, I would probably say that you will need to be in the mid 700's to even get close, this while turning about 5,500 RPM and be able to keep the pump loaded while at the same time, build some lift.

Tall order.  :sly:

 Lower your sights for 70+/- MPH and I can tell you how to get there, you are going to need to borrow about a grand though.  ;)

Hope this puts things in perspective. Not trying to be a snotbag.

GT

  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

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Ray

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2014, 11:51:31 PM »
If your block is standard bore now and will clean up with .030 overbore; the performance gain from boring your block to the max is far outweighed by the reduction in life and rigidity.

On another note, in the pursuit of your 80 MPH goal, you should also focus on getting your boat to ride right as well as ensuring your pump is performing well.

Look at the system as a whole.  The engine is just one part.

Sound words.
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2014, 11:58:01 PM »
Yeah I see what you guys are saying. Maybe I'll just buy a stroker kit and new cam for now. Then do the heads and maybe a better cam later on. Either way I'm getting it dynoed so I'll be sure to post the numbers with my combo.


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Building a stroker with limited cylinder head upgrades will definitely hurt you... JMHO

Be prepared to be disappointed, I know I sure was.  :P  Ever heard of the Central Oregon CCOC Automotive tech classes? Had an opportunity to work with a few students going there. This was a few years ago.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2014, 12:48:32 AM »
...I'm wonder how much hp the heads can flow. I know that stock they flow 270cfm on the intake but I have no Idea how much hp that will support.

Basically around 2 HP / CFM if the assembly and the combination are correct.

Just remember that there is more to making horsepower than peak flow numbers.  Low lift flow for your application is going to be crucial.  Look at the flow numbers at each lift point.  Average flow up to the point of max lift of your cam should be considered.  A smaller head with the same airflow as a larger head will have greater air/fuel velocity, will make more power, and be more responsive.

Here is a good start:

http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29305

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130614

Interesting read:

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/cams_heads_valvetrain/sucp_1206_oval_port_big_block_chevy_cylinder_heads/
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Ckaz21

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Max HP from stock 049 heads?
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2014, 02:07:09 AM »
GT Jets,

I was scared someone was going to chime in about how heavy my boat is. I've owned 2 v-drives and 3 jets in my life and the tahiti that I have now is by far the heaviest. I heard it weighs 1,800 from the original magazine ad that I saw of it. With that being said I'll lower my expectations to low 70s. My engine had a flat cam so it wouldnt rev past 4,300 w/o popping and at that rpm it was hitting 54-55 mph on the gps. I'm already going to be getting a loader and diverter for it before summer so I am only concerned about the engine right now (pump was rebuilt a couple years ago). I'll try to save an extra grand so I'll have a budget of $3,500 for the engine. Only labor I'll need to pay for is machining and and dyno. I'll assemble it myself. Flusher, I def won't bore it 60 over then. I'll see if they can hone it first if not I'll go with 30 over. So with $3,500 to put in the engine what combo do you guys think I should go with? Cause now I'm stumped lol, it almost seems like unless you have 6gs to throw at it you might as well just do a stock rebuild.


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