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Ralph Brunt

  • Karma: +51/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2014, 06:24:25 PM »
i say cut the impellor and enjoy it for the season, the cam will need to be changed, hydrolic cam and bbf is very hard to set up correct, head work and a cam that works with the flow #s of the heads (custom cam) for starters...

i have a 502 bbf on pump gas 10.6-1 comp edelbrock heads turning an  A 5800 rpm, yes custom cam matched to the heads via lakesonly..
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They are all fukin tasty. My long time favorite, "Dirty Dicks -beerjet-
Glasscutter, Skip, OC2  Nordie and many more nail me good every time, relentlessly, I love those guys!

rush1

  • Karma: +18/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2014, 07:21:39 PM »
If I remember correctly bbf like the cam way advanced like 8 degrees or so

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H8Monday

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2014, 08:49:49 PM »
Just came off the lake.  Installed the A impeller.
It turned 4700 rpm and 59 mph.

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H8Monday

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2014, 08:54:46 PM »
And for those interested,  it was 72 degrees and 4100 feet altitude. Carb is still fat with a slight bottom end stumble.

I'll be on Havasu Saturday and Parker on Sunday.  I'll let you guys know what it does with some air.
I've got an entire Holley jet kit with me.  I intend to keep it fat and alive.

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icecreaman

  • Karma: +23/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #54 on: May 22, 2014, 09:02:57 PM »
Man that is a bit disappointing.  Hope it shows a little more life at sea level. 
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Brad @ SCJB

  • Karma: +255/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #55 on: May 22, 2014, 09:14:41 PM »
Just for a reference point, when we (compjet) run in Burley, ID (4,163ft elevation).....we are barely breaking into the 80's.

In Parker, AZ (423ft), the same boats are well in the high 90's. It was about a 10 to 15 mph loss at that altitude.

Also, another point of reference, I was running a 513ci ford, 12.5:1, 112oct and a 1250cfm quickfuel carb dyno'd at 745hp @ 6k. I run a B- impeller and its spinning around 6500rpms. Never GPS'd it much, but the best one I got was 94mph, but keep in mind, this is a much lighter/smaller boat than your cruiser.
  • Boat #1: 1978 Liberty
  • Boat #2: 1982 Eliminator Sprint
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lbhsbz

  • Karma: +29/-1
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #56 on: May 22, 2014, 09:15:19 PM »
You concentrated the build on low end torque, and your now dissatisfied that it won't spin.  That's why it sucks.  Cut your impeller until you can see RPM where that thing makes peak HP...this is not linear...might require a dyno...that's the best it'll do.
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Brad @ SCJB

  • Karma: +255/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2014, 09:17:52 PM »
Based on what youre getting now at that altitude, I would assume once you get it dialed in at havasu, you will pick up 10mph or so....thats if you can find some smooth enough water on that lake this weekend. Good luck and keep us posted.
  • Boat #1: 1978 Liberty
  • Boat #2: 1982 Eliminator Sprint
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2014, 11:25:25 PM »
Based on what youre getting now at that altitude, I would assume once you get it dialed in at havasu, you will pick up 10mph or so....thats if you can find some smooth enough water on that lake this weekend. Good luck and keep us posted.

You might be right, but betting closer to 6 MPH.  :sly:


Speaking of Burley.. ???

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

H8Monday

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2014, 05:26:30 PM »
Well I'm off to join the madness. I'll be on Havasu Sat and on Parker Sun. If you see me in my poser ride, come say 'hi'. Its always fun to meet new boat peeps.

-Todd-
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gqchris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #60 on: May 23, 2014, 09:16:14 PM »

Well I'm off to join the madness. I'll be on Havasu Sat and on Parker Sun. If you see me in my poser ride, come say 'hi'. Its always fun to meet new boat peeps.

-Todd-

Just got done reading your whole thread. Ill be out there this weekend also. Will keep an eye out for your ride. Would love to see it in person. Ill be in this.

Chris

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Saylor Computer Consulting
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chris@(remove me)saylorcomputer.com

torquer460

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2014, 07:45:38 AM »
Cam specs dont sound right not enough lift for duration, 850 carb is plenty with right jetting, dont lock out mechanical advance, timing should be 10 to 12 degrees with 36 to 38 total in by 2800 to 3000rpms. Logs at least should be port matched and opened up as far in as possible. Dont know much about stealth intake. Ive run bbf for years my new 502 runs a edelbrock rpm manifold, 750 vac. sec. holley, msd dist. & 6A box, ported dove heads, 10 to 1 comp, 270-280 dur. @ .513-.520 lift comp cam. My 21' charger runs 63mph @ 5200rpms thru a panther pump shooting 65-80' @ 10' high rooster.
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #62 on: May 25, 2014, 09:28:17 AM »
Cam specs dont sound right not enough lift for duration,

 ;)


850 carb is plenty with right jetting, dont lock out mechanical advance, timing should be 10 to 12 degrees with 36 to 38 total in by 2800 to 3000rpms. Logs at least should be port matched and opened up as far in as possible.

Not being a douche, just keeping it real. Nothing in this part of your post is actually accurate for this situation. An 850 is short on volume to be "perfect", it will "work", but theoretically short. Locking out the mechanical advance will work fine too, the jet drive does not require ANY low RPM grunt, which is why it works locked out. Locked out distributors also idle quite a bit better. The only benefit you gain from not being locked out is hot starting. I doubt seriously port matching a set of logs will do anything at all (not from the seat of the pants aspect anyways), the problem is the way they merge the different cylinders, the "timing is all wrong. The ports are plenty large, they just all merge at the same time, making them restricted because of pressure, not necessarily port size. It would actually run a little harder if the left side manifold was installed backwards, this actually improves the flows and equals the same flow as the right... It is just not practical. look up an animation for a Ford firing order and you will see why... The left side run sequentially... But backwards for good exhaust flow.

Not breaking beans, just maybe helping you improve your deal...


 
Dont know much about stealth intake. Ive run bbf for years my new 502 runs a edelbrock rpm manifold, 750 vac. sec. holley, msd dist. & 6A box, ported dove heads, 10 to 1 comp, 270-280 dur. @ .513-.520 lift comp cam. My 21' charger runs 63mph @ 5200rpms thru a panther pump shooting 65-80' @ 10' high rooster.

Just a hunch or an educated guess here, but if you switched to a larger carburetor with mechanical secondaries you may find the true weaknesses in the Panther Jet, Energizer kit the Panther and you will have a totally different boat. Likely well into the 70's.  8)

Just my humble opinions...  8)


  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

torquer460

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #63 on: May 26, 2014, 09:31:00 AM »
Nothing is accurate in this situation? His or mine? Look at the specs quoted for his situation, with mildly ported stock heads and no more cam and compression than he has a bigger carb does nothing worth spending big bucks on. Someone recommended a 1050 dominator, only with serious port work, bigger valves and more cam would this be feasable. Using Holley's CFM formula even 850 is to big. I run a 750 vac sec carb to help achive some economy as this motor drinks enough gas as it is much less pay $500.00 for a double pumper. The Panther logs i run had serious port match problems to the heads. I used gaskets and opened up head ports as well as log ports and could tell big difference in performance. I did extensive porting and polishing to this heads. My mini cruiser seats up to 8 passengers, holds 50 gallons gas and sometimes pulls 2 to 3 skiers, I need all the low end grunt I can get. Idle is just fine and boat launches like a rocket. I live where summers are 100-105 deg. at 1800' altitude. Just trying to help the guy out with what worked for me. JUST MY OPINION
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #64 on: May 26, 2014, 10:11:06 AM »
Nothing is accurate in this situation? His or mine? Look at the specs quoted for his situation, with mildly ported stock heads and no more cam and compression than he has a bigger carb does nothing worth spending big bucks on. Someone recommended a 1050 dominator, only with serious port work, bigger valves and more cam would this be feasable.

I had already said the cam is all wrong. I recommended a cam before all else. The carburetor was definitely going to be next in line..

Using Holley's CFM formula even 850 is to big. I run a 750 vac sec carb to help achive some economy as this motor drinks enough gas as it is much less pay $500.00 for a double pumper. The Panther logs i run had serious port match problems to the heads.

You can take the Holley carburetor formula and throw it in the trash on a jet. The formulas were calculated for variable torque like in a car or even a V-drive, the torque curve on a jet pump is completely linear, meaning as soon as the torque curve flattens out, so does the gain in RPM. (there is actually a slight gain, but not much). The vacuum secondary carburetor you have, even with the lightest secondary spring is keeping the rpm's limited and if it were not for the Panther jet pump being super inefficient you would not be pulling the revs that you are. Plain and simple fact is that you are comparing a pineapple to a plumb. Mean no offense at all.

I used gaskets and opened up head ports as well as log ports and could tell big difference in performance. I did extensive porting and polishing to this heads. My mini cruiser seats up to 8 passengers, holds 50 gallons gas and sometimes pulls 2 to 3 skiers, I need all the low end grunt I can get. Idle is just fine and boat launches like a rocket.

I will personally guarantee you are not using any of this "low end grunt". The pump does not eat ANY torque until it gets to approximately 3500 RPM, then from there it is linear all the way up until it blows apart or cavitates so bad it stops moving more water.

Again, comparing a pineapple. His logs are some of the best made, there is not a lot more to gain in that arena IMHO, more cam, potentially some carburetor work and it will wake up to smell the coffee.


I live where summers are 100-105 deg. at 1800' altitude. Just trying to help the guy out with what worked for me. JUST MY OPINION

He was at more than twice the altitude, making getting the required air into the cylinders more than twice as difficult. that is why I recommended more carburetor.
We had a house at Lake Tahoe until this last year, trust me when I say you simply cannot get enough air into the motor. On the cruiser, I had installed two bilge blowers to push air into the engine compartment, believe it or not, we picked up nearly 100 RPM, although I think it was because the air charge was cooler...

Don't be offended, just adding to what you are saying. You can't argue with real life. It is all fact.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #65 on: May 26, 2014, 01:24:13 PM »
Soooooooo, how'd she run with some air?

Bueller.... Bueller, anyone?

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

H8Monday

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #66 on: May 26, 2014, 10:03:55 PM »
GT, the water on Havasu and Parker was shit this weekend. (Weird huh?)
I didn't bother with GPS but it did pull a solid 5k rpm.
Seat of the pants said we were finally moving, although it could have just been the chop.  ;-)
Engine  ran solid with some air but still not what I expected. 

I'd like to start hearing suggestions for a proper cam. Or at least how I should go about selecting the next one.

Thanks guys.

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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2014, 10:12:40 PM »
GT, the water on Havasu and Parker was shit this weekend. (Weird huh?)
I didn't bother with GPS but it did pull a solid 5k rpm.
Seat of the pants said we were finally moving, although it could have just been the chop.  ;-)
Engine  ran solid with some air but still not what I expected. 

I'd like to start hearing suggestions for a proper cam. Or at least how I should go about selecting the next one.

Thanks guys.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Sounds more gooder...   :thumbup:

In all honesty, I will be giving you recommendations for a Big Chevy, Fords are elusive creatures...

Lakes Only or George at Clay Smith Cams would be whom I would reach out to. Ford valve train geometry always kicks my butt. There is a little too much math required for me to get it right being as I really don't see many big Fords.

If it were a Bow tie or a Bow tie clone, I could spill it in my sleep.

Good luck and if you need to change the exhaust, center riser would be your only choice, they will typically outflow your existing by about 15%, so not really dramatic, but it's something.

GT

When needing a set of stairs, call the stair people... (quote from Mike Holmes)   ;)

  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

H8Monday

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #68 on: May 26, 2014, 10:15:19 PM »
Thanks for the tips GT. I understand.  :-)

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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #69 on: May 26, 2014, 10:38:50 PM »
Since you are in the market for a new cam, might I suggest regrinding your existing cam.  From Crane Cams, a new billet roller is $440 and a regrind is just $176.
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

H8Monday

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #70 on: May 27, 2014, 10:41:31 AM »
I love that idea a lot.

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LakesOnly

  • Karma: +15/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #71 on: June 04, 2014, 09:04:46 AM »
In reviewing this thread, I see that I completely missed that you had a Dominator AA impeller in your pump.  That's quite a big impeller (bigger than a Berkeley AA). With that in mind, your noted rpm with the Dominator AA (or any AA) doesn't seem as bad. And the increase in rpm that came with the change to the A impeller makes sense, as does the rpm increae that came with the altitude change.

Stealth intakes may be dual plane, but they are considered a "hgh rpm"dual plane," and are acceptable for a 5000 rpm stroker, generally speaking.  The logs can be worked with.

Right now I think a cam change is what's most necessary. Proper valve train setup is important as well. And in a D0VE-headed stroker with logs that is going to run 5000 rpm sustained, very good port work is paramount.  I can barely ball park a camshaft without personally viewing the port work in the heads and seeing any port mismatch at the logs, etc. that said, you definitely need more cam and could even gain power with a non-roller, flat tappet hydraulic camshaft that has bigger numbers on paper. A solid flat tappet or roller will do even better but I don't know what your willing to do in this regard.

Lastly, 70 mph is possible, but getting that big boat out of the water will play a big part of acheiving that goal.
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jim brock

  • Karma: +17/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #72 on: June 04, 2014, 10:12:29 AM »
put in  a A empeller, 108 lobe center cam, and a dominator carb, then you will have a runner
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