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koyota93

  • Karma: +0/-0
Surging Idle Possible Carb Adjustment Issue
« on: July 02, 2009, 11:22:07 AM »
So I rebuilt the motor. Its a 468 BBC, flat top piston, nothing special, MSD HEI distributor, dual plane aluminum intake, 049 large oval port heads, hydraulic cam (Duration 292/302, Lift .502/.527), and a Holley 750 DP (4779).

So I cannot get this thing to idle correctly. The closest I can get it is 1200 RPM but it surges 1200-1500 RPM. I started with the adjustment screws all the way in and out 1.5 turns. I am trying to get it to idle to time the thing.

What should the timing be at idle?

What should I do first?

Please help, trying to go to Big River tomorrow.
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IRRebel

  • Karma: +16/-0
Re: Surging Idle Possible Carb Adjustment Issue
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2009, 11:37:02 AM »
With that cam, a surging idle is gonna be pretty much the norm! That is a pretty hot little number you put in there (Certainly not an RV cam and well into bracket race spec).  Sounds like a Comp Cams 292H, by the specs.

Personally, I think you can tame some of the surging down with a bigger carb, I don't think the 750 is near large enough anyway given your application and hardware. Single plane intake works best on that duratrion of cam, I would think. But to get it to idle down in the 900 range (It'll still surge some, mine does with a little wilder cam than that and 2 -750's on it) You're gonna need a bigger carb at least and I would suggest a good single plane intake such as the Torker.

I doubt timing has much to do with it, but might.

If you want a smooth, low idle, something in the 268 degree range or so is about as far as you can go on that. Maybe 280, but I doubt it, most 280's I've seen run still have a good lope to them. (where the surging idle comes from).

Just my .02

Ray
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"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Holy Shit what a ride!"---Crewcheif22 AKA Keith

gregb

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Surging Idle Possible Carb Adjustment Issue
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2009, 12:04:56 PM »
I'd try it with the timing set about 14 initial and go from there.  Does your carb have 4 idle adjusment screws or two?  If it's only got two I'd check to see how far open the secondary throttle plate is at idle, there is an adjustment for it but you have to take the carb off to get to it, I know on my old carb with the two idle scres if I open that up too much it surges, you can try playing around with that. You can also open it up a bit to see if you can close the primary blades a bit more, that you can do by using a piece of paper or a very thin feeler gauge on the secondary side where the stop is, if that helps then remove the carb and adjust it.  Before you do any of that though, did you do the obvious, like check for vacuum leaks, correct float levels? 
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crewchief22

  • Karma: +66/-0
Re: Surging Idle Possible Carb Adjustment Issue
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2009, 12:24:48 PM »
Double check for vacuum leaks.  With that cam it will have a fairly rough idle but I don't think you sould be surging.   

For timing, I recommend setting with the rpm at 3000 and using a dial back timing light to get your total advance set.  14 initial should get you 34 total which is a safe place to start.  I'm running mine (similar set up) at 36 total currently.
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koyota93

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Surging Idle Possible Carb Adjustment Issue
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2009, 12:33:02 PM »
With that cam, a surging idle is gonna be pretty much the norm! That is a pretty hot little number you put in there (Certainly not an RV cam and well into bracket race spec).  Sounds like a Comp Cams 292H, by the specs.

Personally, I think you can tame some of the surging down with a bigger carb, I don't think the 750 is near large enough anyway given your application and hardware. Single plane intake works best on that duratrion of cam, I would think. But to get it to idle down in the 900 range (It'll still surge some, mine does with a little wilder cam than that and 2 -750's on it) You're gonna need a bigger carb at least and I would suggest a good single plane intake such as the Torker.

I doubt timing has much to do with it, but might.

If you want a smooth, low idle, something in the 268 degree range or so is about as far as you can go on that. Maybe 280, but I doubt it, most 280's I've seen run still have a good lope to them. (where the surging idle comes from).

Just my .02

Ray

Chris Straub (cam grinder) on Performance Boats Forum said that my carb is capable of handling that cam. I told him I had a 850DP, 750DP, and 750 vac. He said the 750DP for sure. The surging does go away at higher rpms. Single plane intake is on my wish list, but not in the budget right now.

I'd try it with the timing set about 14 initial and go from there.  Does your carb have 4 idle adjusment screws or two?  If it's only got two I'd check to see how far open the secondary throttle plate is at idle, there is an adjustment for it but you have to take the carb off to get to it, I know on my old carb with the two idle scres if I open that up too much it surges, you can try playing around with that. You can also open it up a bit to see if you can close the primary blades a bit more, that you can do by using a piece of paper or a very thin feeler gauge on the secondary side where the stop is, if that helps then remove the carb and adjust it.  Before you do any of that though, did you do the obvious, like check for vacuum leaks, correct float levels? 

The carb has 2 idle screw adjustments. I will have to check that secondary throttle plate when I get home. I checked for vacuum leaks. I adjusted the float level too.

Double check for vacuum leaks.  With that cam it will have a fairly rough idle but I don't think you sould be surging.  

For timing, I recommend setting with the rpm at 3000 and using a dial back timing light to get your total advance set.  14 initial should get you 34 total which is a safe place to start.  I'm running mine (similar set up) at 36 total currently.

I will double check for vacuum leaks. Ok, I knew that timing should be at 34-35 fully advanced, but wasn't sure how to set it. Thanks for all the responses.
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Marcsrollin

  • Karma: +33/-0
Re: Surging Idle Possible Carb Adjustment Issue
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2009, 12:58:00 PM »
Does it surge when the boat is in the water or on the trailer? you want to set your idle in the water.
  • Boat #1: 1978 TX-19 Youngblood
  • Boat #2: 1994 24 foot Sundancer Pontoon
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Taco'd "a person or people that show up with one lake lice and a family of 50 and cram 3 people at a time on it with no disregard to boating rules or ethics. Usualy crap in toilets and throw shit paper in trash cans. Hang out at the boat ramp like its a swimming hole. Have zero insurance on anything they own and dont give two shits less about your property."

koyota93

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Surging Idle Possible Carb Adjustment Issue
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2009, 02:00:03 PM »
Does it surge when the boat is in the water or on the trailer? you want to set your idle in the water.

It surges on the trailer. Hitting the water tomorrow.
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Marcsrollin

  • Karma: +33/-0
Re: Surging Idle Possible Carb Adjustment Issue
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2009, 02:10:05 PM »
It will idle lower in the water than it will on the trailer.
  • Boat #1: 1978 TX-19 Youngblood
  • Boat #2: 1994 24 foot Sundancer Pontoon
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Taco'd "a person or people that show up with one lake lice and a family of 50 and cram 3 people at a time on it with no disregard to boating rules or ethics. Usualy crap in toilets and throw shit paper in trash cans. Hang out at the boat ramp like its a swimming hole. Have zero insurance on anything they own and dont give two shits less about your property."

beerjet

  • Karma: +81/-0
Re: Surging Idle Possible Carb Adjustment Issue
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2009, 03:14:36 PM »
Set your idle on the trailer at 1200ish RPM.
Marcs right about the R's dropping when you get it in the water.

-beerjet-
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i dont but im all for stuffin shit in her ass to make her go away :-*

Beaveretriever

  • Karma: +34/-0
Re: Surging Idle Possible Carb Adjustment Issue
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2009, 08:34:04 PM »
i had the same problem on my 460 in the spectra after i installed a 750DP demon, i have been tuning volkswagen carbs my whole life and on some holleys. i adjusted the secondary idle screw and the primary idle screw to fix it now it idles around 1000rpm on the trailer and runs like a raped ape. although it sounded cool almost like i had a super charger on it, i would have left it but after awhile it would load up and stall. there is also mixture screws on the meter blocks that can be adjusted as well i would start them at 2-2.5 turns out and adjust in and out from there


The Beav
  • Boat #1: 1981 Eliminator Daytona 19' Jet
  • Boat #2: 2003 22' Placecraft Deck boat
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koyota93

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Surging Idle Possible Carb Adjustment Issue
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2009, 10:48:03 AM »
Due to lack of time, I gave up and slapped an Edelbrock on. It came of my buddy's jeep and the thing idled as soon as I put it on. It idles at 800 RPM. I will have to mess with the Holley when I get back from the river. Thanks for all the input.
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