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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2008, 10:56:47 PM »
1.7 rockers are an exellent choice, however the overall lift will be exagerated, which could exagerate the lifter problem, if there is one. How about the springs, are they Comps as well (more cam requires more spring). Grasping at straws now.
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Beaveretriever

  • Karma: +34/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2008, 10:59:09 PM »
im still going to stick to a bad coil.... just my .02
Change the coil and put it in the water..

the load that the motor is seeing above 3500 points to the coil
  • Boat #1: 1981 Eliminator Daytona 19' Jet
  • Boat #2: 2003 22' Placecraft Deck boat
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2008, 11:01:55 PM »
BTW Comp makes marine cams too, the one in my 468 is an Extreme Marine P/N XM280H, pretty lumpy but never an issue, I have always had good luck with Comps stuff, however a lot of people have had bad experiences.

X2 on the coil, but didn't you say it did it with the old coil, thought we ruled that out. :-\
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2008, 11:10:35 PM »
Stupid I know, don't need to send back death threats ;D is it an internally resisted coil?

if it is does it have a resistor.

If it is an internally resisted coil and has a resister you'll only have about 6V to make spark with (not enough)
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Brad @ SCJB

  • Karma: +255/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2008, 11:13:29 PM »
there was too many changes between the its first time on the water at the ming race (march) and the parker race (april) to rule anything out.

at ming, it did run funky and didnt run great, but i dont remember noting this issue at all at ming. the issues at ming were minor and were believed to be timing only.

between the ming race and parker, the following was changed:

  • distributor
  • msd box
  • coil
  • plug wires
  • carb (holley 750 to a quick fuel 850ct)
  • change from a stock cast iron cobra jet intake to a single carb tunnel ram

since then, i have changed out the tunnel ram for a edlebrock victor intake.

so basically, i dont want to rule out the above because i cant really say the issue existed at ming, i have no idea if the issues at ming and parker were related. too many changes were made. I want to start from scratch on the trouble shooting....so nothing is ruled out at this point except the carb. we swapped carbs and the problem still existed.
  • Boat #1: 1978 Liberty
  • Boat #2: 1982 Eliminator Sprint
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Beaveretriever

  • Karma: +34/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2008, 11:15:22 PM »
i have bought a new coil and it be bad right from the box. thats what i would try first
  • Boat #1: 1981 Eliminator Daytona 19' Jet
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Brad @ SCJB

  • Karma: +255/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2008, 11:15:45 PM »
its a msd coil, box (6al) and distributor
  • Boat #1: 1978 Liberty
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Brad @ SCJB

  • Karma: +255/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2008, 11:16:42 PM »
i have bought a new coil and it be bad right from the box. thats what i would try first

beav, i will try that as well. thanks!
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Beaveretriever

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Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2008, 11:19:04 PM »
i basiclly live right down the street and i have my boat on my truck, i could bring my stuff by and try it, i just need it back before thursday, because im going to lake S.A, but if you keep it i might just have to tell the girlfriend that i need to go to parker to get the parts back  O0
  • Boat #1: 1981 Eliminator Daytona 19' Jet
  • Boat #2: 2003 22' Placecraft Deck boat
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2008, 11:20:30 PM »
Sorry, for clarification it ran bad with two different carbs, and two different ignition systems including the coils right?

Also does it run real strong to 3500, or is it a little lazy about it?
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Brad @ SCJB

  • Karma: +255/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #60 on: June 08, 2008, 11:24:47 PM »
ok, to put a timeline on this....lets FORGET about the ming race...never happend.

the things that have been changed and have not changed the issue is the following:

  • Intake (tunnel ram to victor)
  • Carb (borrowed ralphs known working carb)
  • Boat #1: 1978 Liberty
  • Boat #2: 1982 Eliminator Sprint
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Brad @ SCJB

  • Karma: +255/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2008, 11:26:21 PM »
Also does it run real strong to 3500, or is it a little lazy about it?

it runs strong and fine UP TO 3500. even out of the hole if you dont go over 3500
  • Boat #1: 1978 Liberty
  • Boat #2: 1982 Eliminator Sprint
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #62 on: June 08, 2008, 11:26:58 PM »
BTW I have three bad MSD6AL boxes with less than 15 hours on them if you want them, lets just say MSD took care of me after some heated correspondance.

Had one fail after cam break in, had one let go on a customers boat on the Sacramento river, and the third one while at Lake Shasta on my own boat. (All 3 were bought at the same time).

There is a lot of "magic" in those boxes, failure would not surprise me.
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Brad @ SCJB

  • Karma: +255/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #63 on: June 08, 2008, 11:28:00 PM »
i basiclly live right down the street and i have my boat on my truck, i could bring my stuff by and try it, i just need it back before thursday, because im going to lake S.A, but if you keep it i might just have to tell the girlfriend that i need to go to parker to get the parts back  O0

beav, thanks for the offer, but im not taking someones running boat apart especially if they are headed to the lake so soon. I dont want to transfer any headaches. I dont wish this on anyone!  :mad:  it might be contagious! lol
  • Boat #1: 1978 Liberty
  • Boat #2: 1982 Eliminator Sprint
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Brad @ SCJB

  • Karma: +255/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #64 on: June 08, 2008, 11:29:34 PM »
BTW I have three bad MSD6AL boxes with less than 15 hours on them if you want them, lets just say MSD took care of me after some heated correspondance.

Had one fail after cam break in, had one let go on a customers boat on the Sacramento river, and the third one while at Lake Shasta on my own boat. (All 3 were bought at the same time).

There is a lot of "magic" in those boxes, failure would not surprise me.

ralph is bringing his spare msd box with him to parker to try. Its another item thats lined up in the process of elimination.
  • Boat #1: 1978 Liberty
  • Boat #2: 1982 Eliminator Sprint
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #65 on: June 08, 2008, 11:33:57 PM »
Damn pretty soon you will have to have another truck just for spare parts!

Sure hope you figure this one out Brad, besides the suspense is killing me, sort of like a soap opera (I know, I know, I had foot surgery a couple of years ago and could not walk at all for two and a half weeks :'()

Good luck! I'm going to go check my eyelids for leaks! ^-^
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

AA/Paul

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #66 on: June 09, 2008, 07:22:56 AM »
Ignition modual ?........This is hard fought knowlege that we'll all learn from. Ignition or electrcal my guess. Keep us posted !
 The little girl on the boat seemed to have had a good time with the family!!!!LOL   ;D
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Redneck Punk
If illegal aliens are undocumented migrant workers.....then Drug dealers are unlicensed pharmacys

If ya can't fix it with a hammer....It's an electrical problem!

propless

  • Karma: +12/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2008, 08:01:51 AM »
 Oops , I was under the impresion you swaped the msd boxes already .   I bet thats your problem, or the coil,.  Isnt that about the rpm that thay switch from milti spark to a long single spark  ???
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Welcome to the club of broken boats :o  Pay here$ bend over and move along.

speedymopars

  • Karma: +6/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #68 on: June 09, 2008, 08:41:54 AM »
Who's plug wires did you change from / to? Were they pre made or did you make them? I've had bad wires out of the box before, and the problems with a bad wire is it will ( mostly ) only fail under load.

msd boxes have a minimum RPM they run, which is around 3000 RPM. Above that there isn't time to have the extra spark.
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Brad @ SCJB

  • Karma: +255/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2008, 08:58:42 AM »
I have 8mm msd plug wires that we had to cut to length.

dumb question: if it was spark, why would it only effect the RPM range from 3500 to 4200 then clean out?
  • Boat #1: 1978 Liberty
  • Boat #2: 1982 Eliminator Sprint
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speedymopars

  • Karma: +6/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #70 on: June 09, 2008, 10:02:10 AM »
The ignition load is greatest around torque peek.

The spark voltage and resulting current will take the easiest path.

Let's go with a bad wire that is burned through as a simplistic thoretical example (I don't think you want me to get into a physics course here):

These are theoretical numbers for an example, ignoring impedance, transmission line charatoristics, and a host of other things we don't need for this. Your numbers will vary.

At idle, with no load, your spark plug gap is the equivalent of 50 ohms.
You have a burn in your wire, and that gap is the equvalent to 500 ohms.

The spark will ignore the burn in the wire, and the voltage will jump the plug gap - this causes a spark inside of the cylinder and the fuel will ignite.

Now, as your RPM and load increases, that resistance from the plug gap goes up. At torque peek, that 50 ohms may be 1000 Ohms now.
The voltage will now take the 500 ohm jump to the header rather than the plug, so no spark inside the cylinder.

At the higher RPM beyond peek, the the load may drop to 400 ohms, so the plug once again fires.

The main thing to understand is there is a variance in what the plug load is based on RPM and load, it isn't constant, and it isn't straight up.

****

If the resitance of the plug is too great, and there is no other path (like you gapped them at .300) it is possible there will not be a spark at all. A specific voltage will jump a specific gap. Beyond the gap it can jump, there will be no spark.

Compression, gap, RPM, and timing all change this plug loading. 

****

It is also possible that your gap is too small, in that case there is plenty of current, but there isn't enough open air spark to keep the mixture lit. Again, this goes up around torque peek and back down again in higher RPM.

****

All this can be trumped by an MSD box that is bad, possible something like the rev limiter is sorta kicking in - did you remove the pill?

****

Also a distributor / rotor / cap that is misaligned can cause the same issue. You are looking for something that is marginal, not something that is completely dead or disconnected.

***

First thing - check the cap and rotor, make sure no moisture and everything is installed correctly and there isn't any burning.

Next, check the wires. Unseat and reseat. look for burns. Measure the resistance with an ohm meter. With MSD 8.5's, it should be 50-70 ohms a foot. With the other MSD's, 500-600 Ohms a foot. In my opinion, any plug wire over 600 ohms a foot is not on my vehicle. A quick check is to bring your old plug wires with you and swap them out. Many times old plug wires work better than the wires that replaced them.


Then double check the plug gap. Set to .045 as a starting point. Too big, possible the spark is not happening, too small, the mixture isn't staying lit. .045 is a safe gap range with a N/A engine. if you are running boost (though I don't remember you saying you have a blower), then gap them to .030.

Once that is finished, set the timing. Too much timing (as will more compression, boost, nos) will cause the plug loading to go up much like you increased the gap.

If all that checks out, Disco the vac advance, swap the coil, then swap the MSD (in that order). 
















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21' 74 cheyenne 543 Mopar Berkeley Jet Place diverter

OC2Vegas

  • Karma: +12/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #71 on: June 09, 2008, 11:48:31 AM »
I have 8mm msd plug wires that we had to cut to length.

dumb question: if it was spark, why would it only effect the RPM range from 3500 to 4200 then clean out?

Years ago I helped a friend move to Utah, we rented a small toyota uhaul truck. Truck ran fine all around SoCal, all the way out to the 15 and up towards Barstow. When we started climbing the hills towards vegas the engine started to miss, and had ALOT of trouble getting up the hills. We were being passed by fully loaded semis up the hills. Down hills and on the flats had no problems at all. We finally made it Stateline and really started to look for the problem. In the dark you could see the spark from one of the wires jumping across to the firewall. Changed the wire in Vegas and had no other problems(except getting pulled over by the Nevada highway patrol for tags being expired)

You probably have never ran the motor in the dark so seeing the spark jump is tuff in the bright sunlight.  I would go buy a cheepie set of wires and see if thats the problem. If it doesnt solve the problem you arent out that much coin! or just return them and get a better set!
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #72 on: June 27, 2008, 09:15:22 PM »
Hey Brad !!!!, Bet you thought we forgot about you. Hows that boat running?

Any more clues?

Put a Chevy in it yet? (J/K)

I have a stupid one for you, How certain are you that you're not getting an oil pressure fluctuation and causing your hydraulic rev limiters (lifters) to kick in?

I was talking to my Ford Freak freind and that was the first thing out of his mouth and I immediatley had a light bulb moment.

The friggen suspence is killing me! ???
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

speedymopars

  • Karma: +6/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #73 on: June 27, 2008, 11:00:35 PM »

I have a stupid one for you, How certain are you that you're not getting an oil pressure fluctuation and causing your hydraulic rev limiters (lifters) to kick in?

I was talking to my Ford Freak freind and that was the first thing out of his mouth and I immediatley had a light bulb moment.


Milodon pan???  ;D
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Elsinore today
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2008, 11:06:11 PM »
The thought did cross my mind, but we would have picked up on that already right? :-\

Its not keeping me up nights yet, but its friggen close ;)
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

 


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