The Big Debate

« **on:** May 02, 2007, 12:39:43 PM »

After reading some heated threads on here and some falsified information exchanges, I think its time to run a Poll and a discussion about which is better for Jet Boat application.

I will be strictly moderating this thread, so don?t get upset if I edit your post or even delete it. This thread will be strictly technical information. Anything that doesn?t belong will be edited or removed. Please use solid facts, not just something you heard from your 2nd cousin?s dog sitter.

If you don?t have anything of value to add to the debate, please don?t post.

« **Reply #1 on:** May 02, 2007, 12:54:10 PM »

As a Ford enthusiast, one thing that I will never dispute or debate at this particular time is that "it is a chebby world in which we live" and the Ford is the underdog. With that in mind, adding a poll to this thread has nothing to do with a "debate," and it plainly makes this thread a popularity contest which the chebby with no doubtedly win. If you want a popularity contest, keep the poll; if you want a friendly debate, kill it.

LO

« **Reply #2 on:** May 02, 2007, 01:03:08 PM »

Quote from: LakesOnly on May 02, 2007, 12:54:10 PM

If you want a popularity contest, keep the poll; if you want a friendly debate, kill it.

Point taken, but I dont think it will influence the debate. If your facts are strong enough, maybe you can even bend people over to the Fords.

I am a perfect example. I am on the fence when it comes to fords and chevys. I have yet to develope an opinion of my own. I just dont feel like I have enough facts to lean either way, thus why I created this thread.

The only thing that is pushing me towards anything is the fact I am distantly related to a key engineer to Henry Ford, so I have Ford in my blood, and heritage is important to me.

« **Reply #3 on:** May 02, 2007, 07:01:04 PM »

Well based on parts availability price to build and base power I am all Chevy. I dont see hardly any 460 parts in summit or Jegs and when I do come across them they usually cost more. Same with passenger vehicles. Go to AutoZone or Napa and ask for a 350 waterpump he will go grab one and ask for around $45.00. Now ask for a 351 waterpump he will probably have to order it and its at least 40% more. In the threads I read alot of 460 issues and I have hauled in alot of 460's off the lake and only a few 454's. Also 460's are 2 bolt main's

« **Reply #4 on:** May 03, 2007, 01:29:15 AM »

Chevy parts are everywhere, if the boat breaks down I can crawl under the hood of a ? 1976 Nova 4 door ? and odds are that I can use almost anything under that hood to get me home.

Chevy's are cheaper to build and easier to build - but are they? What If I want to build a Chevy 540 ci stroker motor? I have to clearance the block, I have to use a tall deck block, maybe even some re-configuring on the valvetrain... On a 460 Ford the valve train/cam location is not an issue, the block will almost never have to be clearanced (from what I've overheard), better and better...

So I guess if I want to build a reliable, cheap (parts), everyday duty or semi-hot engine for my jet boat I'll go Chevy, but if you're building a blown 540 ci+++ you may want to go with a Ford because it's a better design for the application in which it will be used.

.02

Brad

can't touch this

« **Reply #5 on:** May 03, 2007, 12:41:59 PM »

Quote from: bluenun on May 02, 2007, 07:01:04 PM

...based on parts availability price to build and base power I am all Chevy.

"BASE" power comes easier with the Ford 460 and costs less than a 454 specifically for that reason. Stock parts plus nothing more than an aftermarket cam kit can net 500HP NA if you really know what you are doing. The chebby will require a greater number of aftermarket parts to get there and anywhere above.

Quote from: bluenun on May 02, 2007, 07:01:04 PM

I dont see hardly any 460 parts in summit or Jegs and when I do come across them they usually cost more.

1) It's a chebby world and advertising costs a lot of money. Why spend big bucks advertising Ford 460 parts when the majority of your sales are going to be 454 chebby parts? This is why you don't see the Ford parts listed...but the fact remains that there plenty of aftermarket Ford 460 pistons (Probe, Ross, Diamond, Speed-Pro, Venolia, BRC, JE, SRP, etc) just like chebby. Same with rods (SCAT, Eagle, CAT, Oliver, Carillo, Crower, any aluminum, etc), forged and cast steel crankshafts (american and/or offshore), blocks (OEM, Ford Motorpsort, C&C, Eliminator [5 versions]), any flat tappet, roller, billet cam you can dream up, over 25 different aftermarket aluminum head options, etc. Pushrods, bearings, gaskets, valve covers, rocker arms and studs, whatever, it's all out there. 2) And the bottom line cost of using those parts for a given HP number ain't no more than a 454.

Quote from: bluenun on May 02, 2007, 07:01:04 PM

Same with passenger vehicles. Go to AutoZone or Napa and ask for a 350 waterpump he will go grab one and ask for around $45.00. Now ask for a 351 waterpump he will probably have to order it and its at least 40% more.

I don't purport to be a Ford guy as much as I am a 460 enthusiast so I wouldn;t know about small block parts. Besides, this is a boat forum where we use big blocks. With that in mind, waterpumps, oil pumps, gaskets, etc for the big blocks seem to be priced about the same to me...certainly not a difference enough to complain about...all brand auto parts have different prices and I bet you'll find part A or Part B being more for a Chebby or visa versa, depening on what you're looking at.

Quote from: bluenun on May 02, 2007, 07:01:04 PM

In the threads I read alot of 460 issues and I have hauled in alot of 460's off the lake and only a few 454's.

460-specific issues or common V8 engine problem issues where the 460 guys is inquiring rather than dropping his boat off at the shop and having somebody else repair it?

Quote from: bluenun on May 02, 2007, 07:01:04 PM

Also 460's are 2 bolt main's

Yeah, and they have been known to sustain 1800HP. Try that with your lower nickel content 454 chebby block...just be sure to be wearing a bullet proof vest and a face shield before you dare attempt such a thing.

LO

« **Reply #6 on:** May 03, 2007, 01:04:28 PM »

Quote from: hotrod56cars on May 03, 2007, 01:29:15 AM

Chevy parts are everywhere, if the boat breaks down I can crawl under the hood of a ? 1976 Nova 4 door ? and odds are that I can use almost anything under that hood to get me home.

HUH? 460 carbed engines have virtually 100% parts interchangability, unlike 454 Gen 1, Mark IV, Gen this or Mark that.

I do not purport to have a lot of chebby info, but I have rebuilt/looked many chebby engines over closely and even considered a chebby when it came time to build my drag hydro. After a thorough re-evaluation of GM's idea for a big block engine, I was evermore assured that I should absolutely run the Ford. Chebby's are all over the map parts interchange-wise versus you saying the opposite; please correct me if I am mistaken with the following:

The Gen 5 & 6 blocks have the oil passageway alongside the cam and into the lifter valley instead of down the oil pan rail as on the Mark IV. The oil pans do not interchange between these blocks and in fact, the Gen 5 & 6 use a one piece rear main seal and differant oil pan than the Mark IV.
Timing covers were changed in all three blocks.
The Gen 6 uses a cam thrust plate, not the Mark IV. But the Gen 5 and Mark IV also have provisions to use this plate if a Gen 6 cam was to be used.
The oil filter boss on the Mark IV uses a bolt-in adapter with an oil pressure relief inside, while the Gen 5 & 6 filters mate straight to the block with a screw-in adapter and push-in oil pressure relief valves into the block itself.
Both Gen 5 & 6 do not have a fuel pump boss, while the Mark IV does.
The Gen 6 lifter bores are longer/higher with a machined flat surface to accept the roller lifters and their retainers; Gen 5 and Mark IV blocks cannot use the Gen 6 roller lifter and would need aftermarket.
Coolant flow on both the Gen 5 and 6 were redesigned to increase flow...coolant passages were also made larger on the Gen 5 and Gen 6, therefore making it more difficult to use Mark 4 heads on these newer blocks (though a few people have pulled it off).
The 10.200 "Tall Decks" (if you can call them that, as their deck height is still shorter than the Ford) are a different animal altogether than the aforementioned chebby blocks
Etcetera

None of the above is true about the Ford 460. All parts interchange between the carbureted engines except that the 1978 & earlier crankshaft will not fit the 1979 & later blocks (actually they can fit with just 20 minutes of grinding).

When I look at the chebby, I basically see GM constantly chasing poor oversight on their part and trying to recreate improvements from a truly inferior engine design...and based on archaic technology even back then. In case you are unaware, it was chevrolet's intention to make their engines of that era as cheaply as possible and fit to do little more than what they were originally intended (passenger car use). I think this is a big part as to why BBC's need all those aftermarket parts, while a built 460 using a combination of stock block, heads, and crank can support in excess of 600HP with a single carb and possibly 700 if you want to spin it up high like a chebby. But the BBF does not need to be spun so high to make the power that a chebby, so it's parts will last longer, be more relaiable, not rely on so many aftermarket parts to get the HP, etc.

Quote from: hotrod56cars on May 03, 2007, 01:29:15 AM

Chevy's are cheaper to build and easier to build - but are they? What If I want to build a Chevy 540 ci stroker motor? I have to clearance the block, I have to use a tall deck block, maybe even some re-configuring on the valvetrain... On a 460 Ford the valve train/cam location is not an issue, the block will almost never have to be clearanced (from what I've overheard), better and better...

Yeah, and you can manage a 540 cube BBF with ALL stock FoMoCo parts.

Quote from: hotrod56cars on May 03, 2007, 01:29:15 AM

So I guess if I want to build a reliable, cheap (parts), everyday duty or semi-hot engine for my jet boat I'll go Chevy.

More HP potential with the Ford; see my reply in the post above.

LO

« **Reply #7 on:** May 03, 2007, 02:37:08 PM »

I grew up working on Fords. I was die hard Ford from birth! I have found that Chevy parts are cheaper and easier to attain but as has been said earlier you have to find out what Gen or mark or whatever they are. For me chevy Likwise seems harder to work on. I dont think this will ever be resolved but as far as the 2 bolt vs 4 bolt on a jet boat, does it really matter in this application? Not so much!

« **Reply #8 on:** May 03, 2007, 05:53:54 PM »

But remeber GMC and Chevy are Divisions of General Motors, not the same company

« **Reply #9 on:** May 03, 2007, 06:12:44 PM »

just to add the 429 did come in a 4 bolt main as well as the boss 429

« **Reply #10 on:** May 03, 2007, 06:19:25 PM »

People go back and forth on this all the time , and I really dont know why . Availability to me means alot and well as price . Other important things to me are haveing the oil pickup in back , and the distributor in the back out of the way when your pist and throwing sh!t around , it's nice and tucked away in the back.

I was born and raised on Chevy's and one (1) ford pickup. Talking with "lakes only" one time , he almost had me goin blue oval . It is obvious there are tons of advantages to the ford and I'm sure someone with the same amount of insight on the chevy can conjure up some great info too. I almost bought a v-drive

with a ford

once and didnt even stop to thing about the fact that it had a ford in it .

My point is that it is really just a toss up at that point . At what point is it really an even playing field. How do you compare apples with oranges .

Please correct me if I'm wrong . One last thing . The "Rootin Tootin Rasberry" With a FORD ! You should get poked in the butt for even thinkin such a thing .Shame on you .

-beerjet-

« **Reply #11 on:** May 03, 2007, 07:31:15 PM »

Quote from: beerjet on May 03, 2007, 06:19:25 PM

... The "Rootin Tootin Rasberry" With a FORD ! You should get poked in the butt for even thinkin such a thing .Shame on you .

-beerjet-

When's the last time you saw a '69 restored Z28 with a 460 in it?

Stay Chevrolet Brad!

Anyone, irregardless of thei knowledge, wisdom, technical expertise, or anything else who thinks that Ford's are as easy and cheap to work on as a Chevrolet needs to quit drug's pronto! Chevrolet's are more plentifull, more interchangeable (stay off drug's), than Ford's. I thought the intent of this thread was to air solid info on the Ford vs. Chevrolet debate? Not the 454 to 460 debate. I think it's great the 460's are so interchangeable, but can I take that 390 FE or whatever part and use it on my 460? No. Gen this Mark that, WTF? They used the Gen IV for ? 22 years, I can take almost anything off that '67 396 and bolt it on my 454, ditto with the 427 parts. I can take many parts off of smallblock and they'll work. If I'm building a Mark ? Chevrolet it's such a new engine I wouldn't care about the cost. You don't build a Boss 429 Mustang because it's cheap to buy and build. Gen IV's are everywhere, cheaper than cheap, Ford's I have to worry what ci it is before I can even think of swapping parts. I can't complain about the Gen or Mark things, but since we're bring up the point, how many versions of the V8 does Ford have? Exactly, no need to count there brother. Flatheads

, 292, 260, 289, 351C, 351W, 351M (how many 351's do you fockin need there brother?), FE's, big block 429/460, WTF? Not talking about small block's because we're talking about boats? I thought it was a Ford vs. Chevrolet thread, do we need to stay on the 454 460 topic so that Ford has a chance to win? Besides, there's a small block post'er on this site that will smoke allmost all of the big block's on here!

LMFAO

« **Reply #12 on:** May 03, 2007, 08:27:26 PM »

Quote from: beerjet on May 03, 2007, 06:19:25 PM

...important things to me are haveing the oil pickup in back , and the distributor in the back out of the way...

Dude, what if the motor is in a v-drive???

But more importantly, to address your (quote above) desire to have the oil pump and distributor in the back of the engine: bad, bad, bad engineering. The timing chain is turning/TUGGING the cam from the front, and then the oil pump/distributor is FURTHER LOADING the cam at the rear of the block. T-W-I-S-T that cam! While this technically is not an issue/does not come into play in most mild motors that the majority of jet boats have, the fact remains that the more HP you try to extract from your motor, the more this crappy situation comes under scrutiny. Better to have the oil pump/dizzy drive mechanism right next to the cam chain where there is no extra torsional load on the cam from the rear-driven pump/dizzy setup.

« **Reply #13 on:** May 03, 2007, 09:06:42 PM »

About the oil pickup in the back/front, it's relavance is less with an oil pan that has trap doors and the bottom is sloped/angled. Racer's have been using front and rear sump engines for decades with no problems. If you've got 10 quarts of oil it's going to be difficult to starve the engine for oil no matter where the pick up is.

In a car I'd rather have the distributor in the front, in a boat it really doesn't matter to me because it is in a boat, it's going to be easily accessible in the front or the back.

« **Reply #14 on:** May 04, 2007, 01:20:27 AM »

As far as price goes between ford and chevy "YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR" and that goes for everything in life!

« **Reply #15 on:** May 04, 2007, 06:37:06 AM »

Quote from: Marcsrollin on May 04, 2007, 01:20:27 AM

As far as price goes between ford and chevy "YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR" and that goes for everything in life!

Not true all the time. Supply and demand goes a long way in prices.

« **Reply #16 on:** May 04, 2007, 08:10:51 AM »

I grew up in love with Mustangs. Owned a couple Mach I's as a teen. I learned everything I know about engines from various Fords. After all that, I have nothing against Chebbys. I just go with what I know.

« **Reply #17 on:** May 04, 2007, 04:43:01 PM »

Quote from: The Chaz on May 04, 2007, 08:10:51 AM

I grew up in love with Mustangs. Owned a couple Mach I's as a teen. I learned everything I know about engines from various Fords. After all that, I have nothing against Chebbys. I just go with what I know.

I grew up the same way , nothing but chevy's and also have nothing bad to say about fords . I'm definatly going to have to get my hands on a ford one day and pop my cherry .

-beerjet-

« **Reply #18 on:** May 04, 2007, 06:21:54 PM »

I too, grew up with chevy. And I drive ford's now. But if your just going stock to stock in boats. Ford's win. Four years ago, we built two jet boats (same hull). One ford (460) and one chevy (502) The ford would pull the chevy all day, from a dead stop. I would think that the chevy would have win. But I so wrong. I pull that 502 out and put in a 454 blown and smoked that ford all day long. So what is better than a chevy 350?

« **Reply #19 on:** May 10, 2007, 02:28:51 PM »

I am really dissapointed in the lack of technical support from those chebby guys! It almost seems they just knew when defet was certin and just rolled over!

« **Reply #20 on:** May 10, 2007, 05:12:47 PM »

Easy solution to the debate, go to the races, river or whatever and count 'em up. I think you all know who's commin out on top. Chevys are the most popular engine in the world, thats a global opinion....end of story. Now dont get me wrong I'm all about doing your own thing, I talked to a dude the other day about building a Redfish with a flathead in it! My first flatty had a Buick in it. I had a jet just months ago with a 440 in it....I know I know....454-460....

« **Reply #21 on:** May 10, 2007, 05:25:20 PM »

ok i think this thread has offically turned into a popularity contest, instead of tech facts $:-\$

« **Reply #22 on:** May 10, 2007, 05:43:07 PM »

Quote from: rwyyattb on May 10, 2007, 05:25:20 PM

instead of tech facts $:-\$

Tech-nically your wrong . See , I just said tech . So your wrong .

-beerjet-

« **Reply #23 on:** May 10, 2007, 06:13:58 PM »

« **Reply #24 on:** May 24, 2007, 11:59:00 PM »

Quote from: rwyyattb on May 10, 2007, 05:25:20 PM

ok i think this thread has offically turned into a popularity contest, instead of tech facts $:-\$

Keeping in mind that BBF's are significantly cheaper to build a big stroker motor out of, what tech facts are you interested in?

Poll

Chevy or Ford?

Brad @ SCJB

LakesOnly

Brad @ SCJB

bluenun

hotrod56cars

LakesOnly

LakesOnly

countryboyaustin

OC2Vegas

Ralph Brunt

beerjet

hotrod56cars

LakesOnly

hotrod56cars

Marcsrollin

hotrod56cars

The Chaz

beerjet

bkplesh

Marcsrollin

HDriderTH

Ralph Brunt

beerjet

Ralph Brunt

hotrod56cars